#143: Amazon Copywriting Tips and Tricks In 2021

Norman Ferrar  0:02  

Hey everyone, it’s Norman Farrar, aka the beard guy here and welcome to another lunch with Norm. The Amazon FBA and e-commerce podcast. 

Norman Ferrar  0:22  

Okay, we’ve got a special returning guest coming back to us today, copy writer extraordinaire, man, she knows her stuff. I’ve been talking to her back and forth after our first podcast. And it just got to Nora, you know, a lot better. She’s done actually. I’ve hired her on numerous occasions to write a copy for us now. And she does an incredible job. So she is the CEO of hypnotic Amazon copywriter, and her name is  Diane Boerstler. So anyways, you probably recognize the name Kelsey put on the podcast, the last podcast in we’re gonna be talking about a lot of great things today. And, you know, Kelsey, oh, first, let’s get you on here. 

Kelsey

Yes, hello.

Norman Ferrar

This is our biggest giveaway.

Kelsey

I believe so, yeah.

Norman Ferrar

Anybody who’s listening today has a chance of winning a $25,000 giveaway. And not only that, we also have a $1,000 giveaway. So both of these I’ll get Diane to explain in a second. But man Oh, man, this is going to be incredible. wait to hear now are there? I have to talk to her about that too. Because I didn’t, I don’t know if there’s any logistics. So this is open to anybody. Correct? I think in the world, it’s not a US or Canada thing.

Kelsey  1:56  

Yeah, so I believe so. But we’ll clarify and we’ll let you know how to enter and everything in a little bit. But right. Yeah, it’s gonna be a good show. And I just want to..

Norman Ferrar

Hear me Yeah, I, don’t let me talk about my podcast.

Kelsey

You know what, so we got to give it to the people watching here so Many welcome, fatiha, welcome, Hasnuts.

Norman Ferrar  2:19  

Hasnuts?, I don’t know if you’ve ever had a chance to talk to him. But he’s another guy. This guy, man. Oh, man. Talk about PPC. I’ve talked to him a little bit lately. And he shared in our group. He had some ninja tactics. I don’t know if you get a chance, check out the Facebook group and see some of the stuff that he’s been posting. It’s incredible. So thank you, sir. And hey, Mark, I don’t know who the Facebook user is. Marcia that? No. stranger. I was just talking to you. Yakka, Daniel, Simon, Nick. Tony. Everyone is joining us today. Yeah,that’s fantastic. 

Kelsey

Tyrone loves Diane.

Norman Ferrar

Yeah. I knew it’d be a great show. Alright, so remember, I’ll just do Kelsey sing. He interrupted me. I’ll probably interrupt me again. But smash those like buttons, subscribe, follow ring bells, do whatever to hap. join our Facebook group. I guess that’s a good one. Right? Cal stays doing right.

Kelsey 3:16  

Yeah. Our Facebook group lunch with norm Amazon FBA and e commerce collective head over there. That’s where all the fun stuff is. Also, let us know what you think about our new templates for the YouTube channel. We’ve kind of changed things up a little bit. We still got to, you know, upload all the new ones to the old episodes, but we’re working on it. And yeah, it’s gonna be a good show. And I’m excited for it.

Norman Ferrar  3:37  

Yep, we’re and we’re going to be covering today’s show. We’re going to be talking about how to create great copy the mistakes big mistakes sellers are making and just try to improve it. So Diane is just incredible when it comes to this. Alright, so why don’t we do this get off the screen. Other way? That way. There we go. And sit back, relax and enjoy that cup of coffee. Hello, lady. You Hi. I can see myself. How are you? Good. Good. Good. was nice to see you again. Thank you you as well. And you know, I got to tell you. Oh, just sec. Cheers. You should get a lunch with arm Come on. I

 Diane Boerstler  4:18  

have just been informed that there will be one headed my way. All right, very good. And we have to keep it limited so that they remain exclusive. There. There we go. I get one. So I’m super excited.

Norman Ferrar  4:29  

I what I was gonna say is since the last time we talked, you’ve done multiple projects for me. And I am so excited. You know the quality of the work that you’ve done. Yeah, it really is second to none. It’s very good and the angles that you took, you know and you take a look at you I wish it would have taken that angle. never even thought of it. So thanks again. So it’s not only am I excited to have Diane here, I’ve used her services and You know, they’re they’re fantastic. Thank you. I can’t believe when you came to the podcast today, what you’re offering So, you know, I heard Kelsey said, Oh, Diane is going to be like, offering us this $1,000 package. I thought, Wow, that was that’s great. You offered that? I think it was. I don’t even know if was that package. And then you come out of nowhere and you say, Oh, I got a $25,000 package I’m gonna offer. Yep. And it’s a $20,000 pack. This is nuts. It’s Yeah, I anyways, I gotta I gotta thank you the show. Thanks, you. And

Diane Boerstler 5:36  

you’re like, this is the only place I’m offering it like nobody else gets the nobody’s crazy. So anyway, two pieces. So

Norman Ferrar  5:43  

if you know, friends, if you want to tag people, I’m going to tell you how to get a so I’m not sure if the hashtags of $1,000 one is going to be hashtag. We’ll have Kelsey, if you take two people, you get a second entry. And then the $25,000 one, Kelsey, how are we doing that? I don’t know. I don’t know. Oh, there we go. Wow, sure. Hashtag Wow. And that’ll be you’ll enter into and that’s the same thing. If you take two people, you’ll be entered twice. And yeah, that’s great. Diane, tell everybody a little bit about yourself. We have to explain the giveaway I think a little bit. We can wait, we can we can we can do. Okay, okay. Okay, build some suspense. Your show your show, just, you know, you know, it’s girl sees. He just wants to know all about it. So, me, I’m the unorganized one. But let’s get into who you are. And what you do.

Diane Boerstler  6:50  

Oh, my gosh, who am I? What do I do? Well, oh, I’m the hypnotic Amazon copywriter as so called by a client who decided this like years ago, they decided to come up with a name for me, and it was going back and forth. You’re the hypnotic Amazon copywriter and someone else said, No, you’re the wolf of Amazon. And someone else said no, you’re the queen of marketing. And so I mean, it was crazy. So basically, what I do for Amazon sellers in about 50% of my business is I go in, I look at your product, I write copy, I position your products, basically I write the words that sell your product on Amazon, infuse keywords and help with image guidance for a lot of people as well. So they under so they get maximum conversions. Right. That’s a simplified version of what I do. A lot of goes into that as business consulting. And then you know, like, because people there, I kind of fill in the potholes for questions that people don’t know the answers to when they’re selling on Amazon as well. But then the other 50 It used to be about 10% my business and now it’s grown about 50% of my business is I’m an investor owner who is helping people basically massively grow their companies, whether they’re, you know, the e commerce companies or service companies and then exit for a lot more money through this program that I still haven’t officially launched but is gaining a lot of steam, it’s called grow to exit big. And this all comes together. Because before I was the hypnotic Amazon copywriter, I was in creative finance to the tune of you know, billions getting loans or billions of dollars leggins essays and you know, carve outs and anything along those lines for businesses that wanted to grow rapidly. And so that’s no come back into my purview. And I’m combining it with my marketing knowledge, my econ knowledge, everything else to help people exponentially grow their companies so they can exit big because most econ mostly counselors, they think, Okay, I have a product, I’m making this much money on another product, I have a brand. And then maybe they have 510 15 products, but they don’t go through and think about how they have to position to sell massively before you know massive multiplayer, and they don’t think about the professionalizing it they don’t think about organizing it, they don’t think about repositioning it away from being just an AMP just an Amazon or e commerce company into something that’s like, Hey, did you know we could actually get a 36x multiplier by repositioning and acquiring other companies and adding it onto our company under spvs and then we can sell to a hedge fund for 36 times our value as opposed to selling for three times our value based on top line sales. So I’m going to help them with a lot of that is just 36 times more just 36x definitely double sell that’s if you sell at that’s if you sell 80% you grow for 18 months, you sell 80% you retain 20% and then you sell the other 20% again in five years, so you’re basically double selling your business.

Norman Ferrar  9:34  

So let’s talk about the giveaways. giveaways on my mind and it’s gonna be so great. Okay, first one, let’s let’s do the like only the $1,000 one first.

Diane Boerstler 9:47  

The $1,000 one is the hypnotic Amazon listing Plus package that I’ve had for probably, oh my gosh, four or five years now. And so what that is is that is you know, your competitive buyer keyword analysis will go through and figure out what’s your best buyer keywords are not just the ones that they run on the software’s will go through and I have my own analytics like my own, what do you call it? I have my own macro for doing that. So nobody else has that. So that’s why it’s really useful. And then of course, the hypnotic title, as you infuse title, the hypnotic bullet points on EBC content plus image guidance for EBC. And that’s hypnotic Amazon listing Plus package. And then so most people know it’s just, you know, if you’re brand registered sellers really useful. That’s exactly what everything you need, basically, outside of your main one auxiliary image guidance. And then the Yo, let’s add that on the to to it, let’s do that. Let’s make it the 1497 package. So guys, really every anchor need, right? Okay, so that’s really the I don’t want to say, and then it’s not everything. So let’s add on the main and auxiliary image guidance to that one, which are your your images that are to the left of your title, and we call it the mobile hero package. Because without having the right images on mobile with the rights, the hot sales copy, people aren’t going to be able to see your bullet points, etc. Till they scroll way down on their cell phones and 48% I think it is that’s the last I heard 48% of all sales on Amazon are starting on mobile phones right now. So you really need to have those images dialed in and the sales copy selling your products before they can scroll down past all of the other competitors and the fun stuff Amazon puts on your listing to maximize their profits. Right? Okay, so we’re gonna bump it to 1497.

Norman Ferrar  11:30  

That’s, that’s awesome. All right, and just keeping it short, because this could go on for another 15 minutes talking about the next one. The summary of the next one, this is a $25,000 giveaway. Let’s explain that this is a this is an incredible package.

Diane Boerstler  11:51  

Okay. So this isn’t like this to the listing package is a one off, what this is, is I’m going to step into your company, I’m going to take a look at your products, we’re going to talk about ways in which you can grow by adding product lines, other companies, you know, not just ecommerce companies were talking about, you might need to add, you might have value in adding acquiring an accounting company and I know how to acquire those type of companies, including how to acquire them without any money out of your pockets, with the exception of like legal fees, and you know, you know, obviously due diligence fees, things like that. We’ll talk about how you need to professionalize, we’ll look at bringing in the key players, we’ll look at the six different ways that we can grow your business besides just ecommerce and we’ll look at how we can reposition it. So that it’s not just a company that’s selling a product, but see what your highest multiplier is possible. And then we’ll make sure we’re also material legally covered. So that if because as you grow, you attract a lot of attention, right, and I’m not an attorney, but I put together an amazing team of people that I work with across the country, including attorneys, accountants, CPAs, sea level integrators, right. So I can have people take a look at all of this as well with me, make sure that you’re covered and and then we’ll look at how to reposition your company is whether or not it’s a comm company. Is that going to get you the highest multiplier? Or are we going to be looking at getting you moving you into like the marketing space? Are you more of a marketing company? Are you more of a distribution company is that a higher multiplier for you, like what’s going to get you the most money so you can go to exit big, and you’ll have a strategic plan for knowing what you should do, right? Like here that, you know, like the multiple steps you should do, because to a lot of people, it’s really overwhelming. They’re like, well, I want to go from here, and I want to sell here, but there’s so much exponential growth in between there, they don’t realize that it’s not about Okay, well, I just need higher conversions and I need more traffic and then I’m going to be able to sell my company for all this money. That’s not how it works, you’ll be able to sell your company for a lot of money, but not for what you can get if you just hold tight for 18 months, exponentially grow into a company that’s really large and respectable, you can then flip to a hedge fund or to a much larger brands right? And you know, like we can look at acquiring your competitors, all kinds of things. So basically, it’s for people who want to exponentially grow their company outside of just, I want to have more money in my pocket at the end of every month, it’s more about their long term or for some people there they’re pretty close to ready their short term exit plan.

Norman Ferrar 14:07  

Okay, so again, if you want to get entered into either one of these, the first one is only the 14 $100 one is hashtag will have Kelsey and the second one the $25,000 version is hashtag Wow. And if you want just tag two people, and you’ll be entered a second time. Alright, I have one question because just before I got onto this call, I was working with one of my clients and they have the word anti aging in their listing away. Okay. Okay. And they there, they came back and they said look, every one of my competitors on page one have the word anti aging, cream or anti aging, whatever it is. I said to them, we cannot use the anti aging is a claim. Is that correct?

Diane Boerstler  15:07  

Okay, so legally anti aging is not a claim. Okay, for Amazon, anti aging is a claim. Right? Right. So the claim with an anti aging would actually be talking about what that means. Okay. So first of all, so there’s two different ways to look at this. So there’s a keyword search, right? You’re talking about, they want the keyword anti aging. Right? Yeah. Unless they’re dropping about $15,000 a month on PPC, right now, it’s not worth going after, I wouldn’t even touch it, I would, I would advertise for it on their back end. And that’s great. You know, you can put it into your, you know, back in keyword terms, there’s all kinds of ways you can use it on Facebook, you can, you know, there’s all kinds of ways you do that. But in terms of anti aging, what people don’t realize is most consumers artists really looking for anti aging and having it stick out anymore. Because everybody’s using it. So I personally, if unless you absolutely have to, for some odd reason, use anti aging, and you have FDA approval, and you have FCC approval to use that or anti aging is, you know, hint in your product name. That’s a sneaking. Um, then I would not use it on your listing.

Norman Ferrar  16:17  

Very good. And there’s so many, you could talk about the benefits of it, and you can talk. Yeah, that’s what I was saying. So I’m glad, I’m glad that you put in

Diane Boerstler  16:27  

your product name, and it cost me $197 to go file it in your tagline. And as a product name. And you know, I mean, it’s, it’s really not expensive if you really want to use that word, but otherwise, you know, the words like for wrinkles, for fine lines for crow’s feet for I don’t know what you call it? I’m turning 40 next month, and I’m learning like what you call all these things showing up on face, right? Like what the official because I’ve always written about it, but it’s like, okay, what’s that? Okay, that’s what that is. I’m not real happy about that. But, you know, I’ve got I’ve got a lot of clients who can send me stuff that will fix all this, right? We’re gonna fix this. I’m not gonna look old by 40. Um, so yeah, I mean, I would I’d be very careful using it, but they’re right, just get in.

Norman Ferrar  17:08  

Okay, very good. Now, let’s start talking about listings. Okay. Okay. I’m kind of interested in, like, we’ve talked a lot about positioning in the last podcast. Yeah. Let’s talk more about what are some of the mistakes people are making right now, when they’re putting up their product listing?

Diane Boerstler 17:28

they’re focusing on keywords. Okay, so keywords in like, what’s the biggest thing? keywords? And like, right, yes, no, and Amazon cycle of love what will help you? Okay, so let me back up to the very beginning. People bring me keywords, right. And of course, I do my own research on keywords, tons of it, I’m doing for about 10 plus years. So they bring me keywords, and they say, I want all these keywords in my listing. And I say, Okay, why? And they say, well, because these are the highest volume keywords. And I’m like, they’re also the highest competition. And unless you plan to spend a lot of money on those keywords, Amazon’s not gonna rank you for those keywords unless you get sales for those keywords. So they’re overly focused on infusing all these keywords to the point where they aren’t focused on conversions, right? The way you rank high, all of those people ranking, you know, for 2000 3000 keywords organically, you obviously can’t have those all on your bullet points, right? Maybe you want one to two keywords per bullet point, not 50 keywords per bullet point. Okay. So the best way to do that is to look at those keywords and say, okay, what’s my advertising budget? How can I advertise for these? Because Amazon ranks you for sales or for those keywords, and based on your sales, and especially conversions, for those keywords, you want, people need to be looking more at focusing on conversions, not on keywords, keywords, Amazon has long ago started saying, Okay, well, that’s really cute, you put these 20 keywords in there, and you think you’re gonna rank at 10,000 other people, but unless you pay us money to rank you ahead of that and get the sales involved. And that’s what our customers actually want. And they type in you know, anti aging cream and yours pops up and yours is the one they buy it, they’re not gonna rank you any higher than anybody else for it. Right? And they might temporarily for 30 days, there’s that 30 day window or so. But who wants to have a business that does well for 30 days? Right? Right? Don’t you want a business that does well for a long time, and it makes you money every single month, so you don’t have to stress about that would be the business where you have high conversions, right? Not the one where you’re focused on Okay, I need to rank for this one keyword or these three keywords. What a lot of people don’t understand is if you look down at the, you know, like the midway down your keyword list, right? And you’ve got a bunch of keywords that are like 1000 5000, you know, 2000 per month, right? It’s a keyword search volume. And that’s just an estimate, obviously, it’s always an estimate. And then if you add all those up, and you can rank for all of those keywords, you’ll start getting sales for those keywords. And as your sales go up, Amazon’s gonna start looking at ranking you for this other bigger keywords but a lot of people had straight to the top and we always put a few in from the top, just because it’s what the human brain is looking for. Right? It’s more about what the human brain is looking for. Not because you want to rank the Typically for that keyword tomorrow, um, you know, you want to look a lot at what other keywords Can I use and you know, advertise for that have, if I combine them all together, I have a lot of volume, there’s a lot less competition down there. And that’s how you start gaining towards the top not by focusing on these, you know the longtail keywords that you know, let’s say a 40,000 searches a month, and I just wondering for this one keyword and I want to be in position one, but you don’t get there without following these other steps First, right? I call Amazon cycle of love, you got to love on Amazon a little bit at the lower end to get to the higher end.

Norman Ferrar  20:32  

So now converting keywords. How do you I have an app that will show me the best converting keywords? So, which is you know, it’s great. There’s no thinking behind it? How do you find the best converting keywords,

 Diane Boerstler  20:52  

I take all of the data from about five of those apps that I run it through my own personal macro, okay, which gives me a score of under it because I was actually one of my majors was statistics, right? And so I look at that, and I look for a score under one, right. And that gives me what I call a competitive analysis score. And as opposed to saying, Okay, well, these are going to be the ones that have the best buyer keywords, because they are obviously that’s why people are advertising for them, these are going to be the ones that are going to get us in the door, it’s about being the small store in the right place with a ton of traffic, you know, with a ton of traffic as opposed to being the big store with a ton of brand marketing, right. So we look at the competitive analysis side of things every single time. And that’s how I decide which keywords to rank people for. And helium 10 is something very similar to what I do. Mine is just a little bit different. It’s more on the human psychology side as well. So look a lot of the side keywords, people, they’ll come back and they’ll say, Okay, I see my listing, and I see you’ve infused 10 keywords. And I’m like, actually, there is 19, but you don’t know about the other ones, because their site keywords, they’re not on your list because I don’t want you to advertise for them. These are just keywords, we know that based on the five levels of customer awareness that people are going to be looking for, right and searching for outside of Amazon. So

Norman Ferrar  22:06  

where’s the importance of weaving in these keywords? I we know that title, you know, you’ve got to get that main key. But how do you how do you plan this out? I plan out the keywords? Yeah. How do you interweave it? You know, through the the listing words? Okay, main keyword, what other types of keywords you putting in? Are you putting in an additional phrase? Are you then going over to a search terms? Like kind of, can you can you help me figure out the methodology?

Diane Boerstler 22:37  

It’s the methodology is pretty simple month one, so Okay. So where I come in is I take my analysis and I put the keywords in, we aim for the we aim for a high volume keyword like the one everybody wants to rank for in the title, obviously, because only because the human brain is looking for that. That’s the most common keyword and the human brain see, oh, that’s what I need. Right? That’s right there. That’s what I want, right? And then we look at the medium volume keywords and we infuse those into the title. Okay, I do I do really approve of the breaking up large, longtail keywords and infusing as many of the smaller parts into the title for like the search terms into the title as I can, as long as your title is getting high click through rate, because and I still click the rate because I’m not just an Amazon, right? As long as you get heel clicks on Amazon. And then when you go down to the bullet points, my general rule is I write for conversions first. And I use a keyword bracket, right? Don’t ever write for keywords, like ever right for keywords, your search engines don’t have wallets, right. So your conversions first, and then I go back through what I look at, okay, according to my analysis, what are going to be the keywords you want to rank for first, and second, third, fourth, because I’m looking at the Amazon cycle of love, right, and those are the ones that go first, as long as they fit. Well, sometimes they go into the second bullet point. And Amazon only they only this is what they say they do. Although we found it to be very wonky. They say they only index the first 1000 characters, right? We found that to be completely inaccurate. So otherwise, because that you know, but otherwise, you know, like sometimes they’ll skip over bullet point one, right? They won’t index anything for bullet point one. And we’ll contact them and say why aren’t you indexing this? And you’ll say, well, we don’t really have a reason the the machines just don’t like it, everything is perfect. It’s you know, so then we have to move the keywords around. It’s kind of a song and dance, then at 30 days, right? Here’s the big kicker A lot of people don’t do they, they kind of take the everything’s awesome approach with their listing, it’s okay, my conversions are great. What they don’t do is they don’t go back and look at a keyword report and say these are the ones I’m getting the most sales for. So these are the ones I should be trying to rank for organically and then go and change out their keywords. Right. So if you don’t change out your keywords, Amazon’s not gonna continue to rank you know you for them as highly organically and you want to have the ones that you’re spending the most money on it getting the most conversions from being your listing, right and you don’t know precisely what those are until you’re 30 days out. And sometimes 45 or you know, 60 days out and then you keep refreshing that like the listing is an ongoing thing. And I do have clients come back to me and say, Hey, I would like you know, it looks like we’re getting our sales over here, I would like to have you swap out the keywords and I say, awesome, I can totally do that. That’s why you have 365 days of unlimited edits and optimization. So that people come back, you know, because they don’t want to say, Okay, great, we have this great thing, and we’re converting it 36%. But we’re spending all this money on marketing over here. And we could be spending less on marketing. Because the less you spend on marketing, you know, that you don’t need to, then the more you have in terms of profit at the end of month,

Norman Ferrar 25:28  

so you got to see this. It’s just one sec, what am I seeing up here? He’s not gonna do it. No dog is come into the room, and he had a bandana over his nose, he looked like a bandit. And anyway, it was hilarious. I was breaking up and he was anyways, just grabbing a coffee here. Thank you. It’s great.

Diane Boerstler  25:55  

And I know I sound really intense about this. But it’s like, talking about this for five years. And it’s really important that people understand that we write for conversions, we infuse keywords, we go back and check our keywords. And most sellers can just do it themselves in five minutes, swap out the keywords, right. So they don’t want to but they don’t want to come back talk to me, which is great. I’m happy with that. But really important, right? For conversions, right for conversions, right for conversions, split test, make sure that you’re actually you have the highest performing copy possible, you know, play with a little bit yourself. If you go through your reviews, you start seeing people using the same word over and over again, put that word in your title, right? Even though it’s not a keyword, it’s it’s an anchor, where people are like, Oh, these people get me, let’s do that, right? Just super simple things you can do to continually boost your conversions.

Norman Ferrar 26:42  

So let’s, let’s just do a quick poll here. Anybody who’s listening, D swap out over the next like over a 30 day launch? Is anybody using that technique? I’m just kind of curious. We’ve got quite a few listeners right now. And just wanted to see if any of them do that. Because Steven Pope, he’s been on the podcast a few times. Really great guy. He knows his stuff. He just said exactly what you said. And he, he does it in a three phase. He’s going to a four phase, keyword cycle. But it’s it’s not about just setting it and leaving it and saying, hey, everything’s gonna be great. Just because you’re getting some sales. Well, maybe you get five sales a day. But if you do this properly, you can bump that up to 20. Sales a

Diane Boerstler  27:28  

week. 5100 100. Yeah, hitting these. That’s how they’re dropping. People are like, we’re still about the ECOSOC. I’m like, I didn’t sleep at all last night, the baby was up all night. So I’m sure that’s my comment. But there’s still about that, you know, we’re spending this much per word. Okay, so we’re really looking at how much money are you making the end of the month? Where can you cut down on what you’re spending without harming your product or your customers? Right, you never want to cut down on product quality, you never want to cut down on your traffic volume. You know, you want to look at the smart ways in which you can slice money out of what you’re spending in your business. One of the smartest ways is, if Amazon is if you’re getting all the sales for this keyword, you should have it in your listing organically. And it doesn’t necessarily show up like we’ve had the wildest people, people who launched Amazon. I like the first month for first two months. I love working with people because they’re like, even people coming out of marketing from other areas, right? People who’ve done run service companies, and they’ve done ecommerce sales funnels, and they’ve used Google, right? They’ve used Google traffic and YouTube traffic and Facebook and Instagram. And now what do they have? Like the what’s the dancing when all the kids are like watching that? You know? Like, I can’t think of what that is. What is that? The tight? I’m chubby apparently. not cool anymore. Tick tock, tick tock. Yeah. Okay. So people coming out of these traffic sources, they go to Amazon, they’re like, I don’t understand this. This is the word that I’m getting all these sales for. And it’s like, cat toy purple, you know, three pack or something ridiculous, right? And I’m like, Okay, great. So now we need to figure out how to put cat toy purple three pack, which in the title is easy and obvious. cat toy? Purple three pack? Super easy, right? How do you infuse that in your bullet points? You know, the continued words. And then they don’t understand that when people are searching on Amazon, their search intent is different. Right? So on Google, a lot of people are looking for an answer to solve a problem. When they go to Amazon. Usually they’re already at the level where they know the problem they want to solve. They already understand the main solution they’re looking for. Right? So like the anti aging cream, right? And so they have these weird keyword terms. They’re like, this can’t be right. This no one no one ever type in cat toys, purple three pack, right? And like no, actually, they will type in cat and you’re ranking for it. So like, you’re doing really well with that keyword. Like let’s dominate with that keyword. And I’m like, but I really want this one that has, you know, 100,000 searches per month. I’m like, what you’re making 30 sales a day off this one like money, right? Let’s follow the money. Let’s not follow the analytics. Once you get past analytics, you gotta follow the money. Right? Because that’s, I mean, you can’t pay your Build with keyword search volume. That doesn’t work, you need conversions. And then you need to cut the fat off your advertising campaign. One of the things when, excuse me, too many cigars. Just give me one. All right. So when when we’re doing our our keyword research, one of the things that we do, and I’ve mentioned this before, but I think it’s very important for our VA is to understand that there are browsing and buying keywords. Now some of the people that listen to the podcast probably already hear me talking about that. But let’s go back and talk about I’m a pet owner, I own a dog. But I type in pet chew. And you see hundreds of 1000s of people putting in pet chew or pet treats. That is a browsing keyword. It’s not a specific keyword, then you go dog chew, well, I have a dog, I gotta chew, that’s still a browsing keyword, then you put in bully stick really sticks, well, buying keyword, it cost you $20 a click and you’ll never rank unless you got big bucks to put in for bully sticks. So what you’re looking for is what we call a primary long tail. What’s the next? What’s the next volume down? Which could be natural bully sticks? organic boy. We placed it back. Yeah. And then you go on, though? Yeah, yeah, you’re looking for the long tails. Because you know, most people are unless like, maybe the top five competitors will be competing for those, but they’re getting the ones for dog chew. Because they double the money because they were the first ones on the market with bully sticks. Right? So you know, they can afford to do that. But yeah, the longer the keyword look for those really long tail keywords. And if you can, I love sneak like, I get a high when I sneak these ridiculous keywords into listings, like, you know, because you have to, I mean, you have to really think sometimes when you’re when you’re doing this for these, these, the ones that don’t make sense to the natural language pattern, and your human brain, right. And that’s why I start getting really excited. It turns into a game for me, like how do I sneak this in? You know, and it

Norman Ferrar  32:02  

doesn’t have to be an exact phrase, you can spritz them around, and you can Yeah, as long as they’re, I believe within I don’t know if this is still accurate, but used to be 15 words apart, they will match together with the algorithm. And so it doesn’t have to be the exact phrase.

Diane Boerstler  32:19  

Yeah, work within, like I say, like 70 characters apart. And so we can sneak them in just like you can stick in anti and aging. Right? Oh, but you still want to try to rank for just anti aging. I mean, because you think about the companies, the brands that have there, they’re spending millions of dollars a day. Like um, you know, L’Oreal Maybelline, you know, these big guys, there’s and we just don’t have I mean, do you have a million dollars sitting around, you’re just gonna want to throw out the word anti aging every single day and no, good job good for you can see, I would not do that personally, like, that’s not on my I have five kids and a bonus kid, like we are, you know, we’re looking at college, or you know, I don’t know, have that kind of my anti aging is not on my keyword list of like, I’m going to go spend a million dollars a day to try to dominate L’Oreal space. Right. Um, so yeah, I mean, you can sneak them in that way. Absolutely. You can sneak them in my fate. One of my favorite ways to sneak him in is, if you look underneath your brain EBC a plus section is, and you look at the image description right there, but the image description section, yep. So you can stick those in, and then Google will start ranking you for them and Yahoo will start ranking for them, and Bing will try to rank you for them. And, you know, like bing, bing search is a little bit wonky, so you can stick them in there, too.

Norman Ferrar  33:39  

And we’ve been doing a lot with images lately. And Paul Baron was talking about this on his clubhouse the other day. But all of our images that we do, no matter if it’s a social media image, everything that we publish, we changed the name of the file name. And in Amazon, by the way, you put the ace in, and then the first, the first image should be the ACE and name, but we still do a second and then keyword. But when we’re publishing them out in our social media, we change it, we change the metadata, we so we will rank in Google Images. So somebody is looking for bully sticks, you know, well, hopefully they find us. But yeah, that’s that’s just a you know, another way to help rank.

Diane Boerstler  34:25  

I’m surprised honestly, like, what, but the way my brain works, if you were to go and find a bunch of people to JV with on YouTube who have huge sales for or who have a huge following for dogs and have them because YouTube ranks higher than images on Google, you don’t have them, tuck your asen in there, and your link and use the mat and beta data and you know, pay them a percentage or, you know, pay them a short fee for like borrowing or buying their channel for a short period of time of the channel space. I mean, imagine how much traffic you can get if you have somebody who’s hitting that and they have something that says, you know, check out this special deal below and then I mean, imagine how will you drink then that’s crazy. Sorry. My brain

Norman Ferrar  35:02  

you know, um, anyway, yeah. All right. One other thing before I get into the next topic, which will be kind of interesting, but all right. So let’s dig into the vault of secrets. What what are you doing differently that our listeners can do right now to help there help optimize your listing other than the other things you’ve been saying?

Diane Boerstler  35:22  

than the images? Yeah. I’m trying to embed as many hypnotic anchors as I can into images right now. That’s really what I’m doing. I love this, by the way. So

Norman Ferrar   35:32  

let’s explain what a hypnotic and I’ve been telling people about this ever since our last podcast,

Diane Boerstler  35:38  

okay. So hypnotic anchor there. I use that in two different ways, right? So when we create a hypnotic anchor for your product, that is a word, right? It’s usually one or it’s usually two to three words combined together, right? So an example that I could give is like, age release technology, right? Instead of saying anti aging, age release technology. And you’re actually anchoring that into the brain, because you’re combining things that brain doesn’t have to think as hard about processing information of like, what does that actually mean? And then when they go to search other listings, they’re not going to see age release technology anywhere, right? So there, it’s going to be anchored into their brain is like, this is a feature of this. I really like this. I really like this for this product, but it’s not anywhere else. It’s like, is it Hoover that uses like vortex technology, they can. Yeah, that’s a hypnotic anchor. Right? So that’s a word, hypnotic word anger, essentially, right. And you could do that with your product features, you want to do that with your product features. If you can, mode, and most listings appropriate and some listings, it’s not appropriate. If you’re selling something that’s like heirloom quality art supplies, you know, or something that’s really high end, you don’t always, you’re not going to want to, you know, like a high end wine decanter, you’re not necessarily gonna want to use a hypnotic anchor, right? Slightly different crowd, you can still sneak in hypnotic anchors, but you do it without creating something that’s high tech. Right? And then on the images you want to be looking at, you know, what are the anchors that build trust, right? You’re looking at the seals, you’re looking at, like, if it’s made in the USA, the American flag you’re looking at, you know, or if it’s something where people want to buy from Germany like a knife, right? Nice from Germany, anything that’s metal from Germany, people anchor that as high quality, you know, things like that. You want to look at how can you anchor specific emotions within your listing? So you’re looking at like, the images, people are like, oh, lifestyle image, right? I want to show people who are happy. Okay, happy is like one of many emotions, and it’s not actually emotion that sells the most. Okay? And so they’re like, okay, happy, happy, happy. So look at the wheel of emotions and say, okay, which emotions on here are going to cause my customers want to buy this product? Right? And how do I transition through those emotions? So am I showing something that’s negative first than positive? Right? Let people like before and afters, that’s one example of negative and positive, right? We also want to go through and look at like what color schemes you’re using in your pictures. And I started getting guidance on that. How do you have borders? Where are you like, are you using? Is this the kind of image where you want to use an arrow? Is it that Crowder, you can use a line in a boxes and be more structured looking. You know, anything that’s like, you’re kind of looking at their identity, because if it’s more of a structured, there’s just so much if you’re more if you’re selling to more of a structured crowd, you want your misters to look more structured, but if you’re selling to more of a fun whimsical crowd, like I did one yesterday, that’s 10 bullet points, tempo, play things blowing my mind. We’re gonna talk about that a minute. Um, you know that I did one yesterday, where it’s like more of a like, you know, like, I love you hugs and kisses, like, woo, you know, like, my 12 year old daughter is, you know, they use like fun slang terms. Do you want your images to look more whimsical? You know, one thing we’ve been using to sell pet listings a lot higher is speaking from the point of the pet. Right? If you’re selling something like speak like it was theirs when we wrote that was so funny. I couldn’t stop laughing but like it’s converting so works, right? So looking at just the different, you know, anchors and identity you can put in those images. And then also, through your listing, I feel like I just talked for like 10 to about 10 different things. What is up with 10 bullet points? Okay, everybody here now have access 10 bullet points, because this is I’ve got some people with access to 500 characters, 549 characters, 500 characters, and I’ve got people coming through with like, we have 10 bullet points, and I contact Amazon. They’re like, no one should have 10 bullet points and someone else’s everyone should have 10 bullet points. I’m like, Okay, I need a straight answer. Who knows about 10 bullet points? What’s the story with this?

Norman Ferrar  39:25  

This is this is all over the this is all over the place? Yeah, no, no. Some our search term, subject matter was replaced a little while ago. Okay. And as soon as that happened, we saw some of our clients have 10 bullet points. However, some of the subject matter was removed, nothing had changed. We’re seeing exactly what you’re seeing if anybody has a different answer. Let me know because it’s all over the map.

Diane Boerstler  39:57  

I really want to rhyme or reason to this so I can explain it to my clients. I have contacted Amazon, leaven 12 times now and every single person has a different answer. Nobody can tell me it’s category specific. Nobody can tell me who’s rolled forward and who’s still back stuck here. Some people are still asking for subject matter keyword saying we still have them. So can we have them like? Sure, of course you can have them. Some people have 10 bullet points. Some people are five, it’s just all over the place. And I don’t know if Amazon’s like split testing or trying to drive us insane. Not really sure. But it’d be great to know, you know,

Norman Ferrar  40:27  

well, hopefully that’ll be explained. Just like the gluten on the weekend. I don’t know if you heard about that. What happened on the weekend? Oh, my gosh, probably the biggest hiccup in Amazon history. So I thought it was gonna have a nice I was gonna go out and have a cigars relax, get my feet up. knew that didn’t happen. Everybody and his mother. What like all my clients just hitting me up what’s happening to our listings, we can’t find her organic listings. Gardening has disappeared. Yeah, until around three, four or five o’clock in the afternoon. Nobody knew what was going on. But anyways, they’re back now. But a lot of people lost a lot of money. You know, because of it. Prior to

Diane Boerstler 41:13  

Amazon released some new law, like you can no longer use keywords in your listing because we’re for a while there, we were headed there. When Amazon was like, Well, you can’t use any of this in your listing. And so anybody if we’re in an on the bottom categories, you know, beauty, health, etc, etc, etc. It was like, You can’t say anything. So we figured out all these great ways to like get around saying anything while saying everything at the same time. It was it was so much fun using the NLP and that the competition is so messed up ranking

Norman Ferrar  41:40  

with these hooks that you’re talking about. Right? Once you start realizing what they are. They’re everywhere. Yeah, all the big brands are using your watch TV. I’ve been telling my wife related my whole life. And now I see it. My eyes are open. Yeah, I know. I’m so sorry. No, it’s great. Because Oh, wow. Yeah, I’ll search and you’re exactly right. I’ll search Oh, this one doesn’t have the vortex power. Mm hmm. Okay, well, it can’t be good. If it doesn’t have the vortex. You know, you’re not in the ball. And you can pick up a bowling ball every single day. Like that’s what you need to do with a bowling ball. Yeah, yeah. But anyways, if you so if you’re listening and you haven’t tried that out, give that a shot, because that does give you a unique advantage. That’s your USP. So let’s see, I want to just mention, we’re what Oh, 45 minutes in Okay, so we are having a double draw today in case you’re just tuning in. The first one is hashtag we’ll have Kelsey and it’s just for a minor 14 $100 consult with with Diane about and it’s the full package your Amazon listing will be uplifted, it’ll be a facelift, complete facelift. The second one, just It is our largest giveaway ever. Again, Diane has generously given us a $25,000 package. And that is hashtag Wow. It’s incredible. I’m not going to get into it because it give me a half hour to explain it. But it’s a major major major consult. So anyways, then I’ve been hearing

Diane Boerstler  43:29  

Good job market symbol points. Sorry, I just saw that on screen. Sales copywriter that before. Double check people Sorry to interrupt you. I can’t see you know anything cuz he’s got to read. Kelsey, tell him Go ahead. Kelsey doesn’t listen, so he won’t come on anyways. But was that Oh, yeah.

Norman Ferrar  43:56  

wasn’t listening. wasn’t listening. Alright, one of the key words I’m hearing now and I’m hearing a lot of us is I hope I’m saying this right. neuro holistic copy. Like what what? Did I say that right? Neuro Linguistic, neuro? See, I knew I would. I’m an old guy. So those big words really hurt multi syllabic words hurt my head. multisyllabic words hurt my head. Anyway. That’s Yeah, I stick to the one syllable ones. But I’ve heard this come up numerous times since our last call. The more and more people are talking about this. Let’s talk about how get first understanding what that is. And you did this. Maybe this is just out in left field. But you did this with the CIA, didn’t you?

Diane Boerstler  44:51  

Not on this podcast. I didn’t. No, no. No. Okay. So no, I have not okay. So I have been brought in as a counselor. And several times for multiple government agencies, not just ours to help write these really fun little letters that set up a chain effect of actions that help to save fun situations. And that was years ago. Um, but my grandpa was in the CIA, my brother, my, we’ve got a lot of members in there. So a lot of this stuff comes from just knowledge of like, covert CIA, you know, phrases used, and transitioning those into the marketing side of things. Um, but with neuro linguistic programming, it’s more about sleight of hand conversational hypnosis as well. It’s more about sleight of word phrases, right? So what we’re looking for there is what are all the things that it what are all the things you can say that are causing someone, we’re not saying that are causing someone to throw up their subconscious wall, their subconscious barriers, so they won’t buy? And what do we say to drop those down, so they feel safe to buy, and they feel like you have their best interests at heart. Right. And that goes back to the, you know, the the logical levels, which is like, you know, how do we align our identity that we’re like them, right? Um, you know, of course, we have all the phrases that I talked about, like the claim, no claim and all that fun stuff. But how do we identify that word? How do we make them feel like, we’re like that we understand that we’re on the same team, we’re sitting next to me in a coffee shop, we’re best friends, right? How do we help them? How do we reposition their beliefs, right. And one that a lot of people forget about is capability. Here’s a big tip that a lot of people don’t realize your customers biggest reason for not buying is not that they don’t think it will work for them. It’s that they think they can’t do it. They think they can’t make it work, right. So if you have a product, and you’re looking at it like okay, well, how do I boost conversions, look at how you can make the customer feel better about you know, if we can’t like if you can’t make it work for you, we’ll help you make it work for you. It’s not just about refunds, right? Like, well, we’ll help you like a lot of companies like tech companies will will jump on the phone with you. Right, we’ll help you and no one’s ever gonna call because they’re gonna be embarrassed, it doesn’t work for them. Right. But it’s also going to lower your refund rate. But people are really afraid that they don’t have the confidence like I can’t make this particular product work for me. And that goes from everything from art supplies to and it sounds really silly, but just you know, think about it people are like, well, what if this doesn’t elevate me to the level I want to be at right? And art supplies to supplements to you know, people talk about removing the the objections, the biggest objection is within ourselves. So try to think of it from their perspective to like, what would I see in this product that would make me think, I, this won’t work for me, right? Like, okay, well, you know, I like we’ve, we’ve started using hypnotic anchors that have to do with genetics. And you’re not allowed to talk about genetics on Amazon, obviously, but that have to do with genetics, because people think like, Okay, well, my mom was overweight, and I’m overweight. And so it’s just a family genetic thing. So it talks about, you know, like cellular, you know, repositioning technology, which would probably get a slice on Amazon, but something along those lines, right, like epigenetic reverse technology, because epigenetic triggers, and, you know, I don’t know if you know about all that stuff. You might like Dawson church, all the fun stuff. So I’m sorry. So yeah, I mean, it’s, um, we were talking about me a second here. I’m trying to circle back and Oh, yeah. neurolinguistic programming. So usually, it’s, you know, I started off using it as sleight of mouth phrases. I was a paralegal previously, and I was gonna go to Yale Law School, and I decided that I’d rather have a family than spend 100 hours a week as an attorney. And so, you know, I started looking into like, persuasion. You know, things like that, like, how do you persuade people to doing things? I wanted to be a senator one point time. So that kind of tied into be persuasive. And then it went into like, the realm of success, and then I kind of integrated both of those into my life. But yeah, Neurolinguistic is, you know, just how do you call them the human brain to the point and move the ego out of the way, so somebody will buy your stuff? Right, like the simplest, it’s like that, you know, 150 our training, kind of, it’s hard to boil down into one thing, I’m so sorry. And my brains all over the place this morning.

Norman Ferrar  49:02  

Maybe what we can do is, is because this isn’t a five minute topic. No, let’s let’s bring you on again. And yeah. And we can have the whole podcast based around that.

Diane Boerstler  49:16  

We should do it in September, when all the parents have said all their kids back to school, their fingers crossed. And, you know, then I will have like a brain and the baby will be old enough. He was up teaming on it last night. Our brains like whoo neurolinguistics.

Norman Ferrar  49:31  

Now, prior to the podcast, you were talking to Kelsey a little bit about the five logical levels of customer awareness.

Diane Boerstler  49:40  

Oh, yeah. So five levels of customer awareness. Which are, you know, when someone goes to buy your products, right. They’re coming from five different points. And it’s not necessarily your product when someone goes to I let me let me reverse that once because that’s why your product isn’t falling in there and getting purchased right? So when someone goes to part Just a product, right? They’re going to really solve a problem. So their first thought, is it customers level one most people think, Okay, well, I know this brand, Hoover, I’m gonna look for the best Hoover to suck up the dirt because dirt sucking clean carpets is what they want. That’s their end game. Dirt sucking is what they want to do pet hair sucking in my case. Um, so they’ll say, Okay, well, I know Hoover, they brand advertise. So I’m going to go look for Hoover, I’m going to look for Hoover, I’m going to look for Hoover, I want the best price on a Hoover. Right? Um, that’s customers level one. And we can sneak in there by advertising for you know, things surrounding Hoover, right? customer awareness. Level Two, is I know I have a problem. I know what kind of solution I want. Right? So like, I know, I want a vacuum. I don’t need an air purifier to suck up the dust and the pain or the dander. I need a vacuum. So like okay, I’m going to look for the best vacuum and that’s where hypnotic anchors come in. Right? And so you’d be advertising for the keywords for, you know, like best vacuum, right? Things like that. Customer awareness level three is they have the problem. They know there is a solution, they’re going to find a solution, but they haven’t settled on the type of solution. So maybe they’re looking for a vacuum. They’re looking for considering an air purifier they’re considering and you know, changing out their floors. Like maybe we should just get hardwood floors. They’re looking for one of those little like, you know, then they’re looking for Steam mops and those are where you look for a lot of your site keywords right. Customer awareness level four are the people who would get what the how questions by linking back from advertorials and advertorials and blog articles right and videos like links below videos for like, how do I keep my house clean from pet hair? How do I keep the allergens out of the air? how those how to type questions, because they don’t even they really have a problem. But they don’t realize there’s a child about to burst in this room. Just a warning, everybody. Hi, what are you doing?

Diane Boerstler 51:57  

Sorry, it’s my six year old Tikkun.

Diane Boerstler  52:00  

So customers have a forest they realize they have a problem. Or they don’t really realize what their full problem is first get and they’re they’re going through that they’re finding the solution. Right. So like, Is there a solution? There’s not the disbelief love, like, Oh my god, there’s hair everywhere. all over my clothes. I’ve got all over everything. People want to come to my house. So embarrassing. You know, I’m bringing it on the podcast. There we go. Well, I wouldn’t. But that’s my that’s Derrick. That’s my future husband. He’s okay. He’s full time successful, very successful financial strategy, business and he just needed to grab his cell phone charger. We have a full house here. We’ve got a nanny. We’ve got five kids running around. It’s Wednesdays are the school from home. It’s crazy. So I apologize. But we love everybody we’re good. You know, it’s a it’s a family business here like this really family business. So customers little for they either know they have a problem and they’re researching the solution or they’re still researching what the problem is. That’s where you use that. Like I said, those those backlink articles to your products. A lot of people call it native advertising, you can do native advertising for that now, like sponsored advertising. And then customer number five, we always have to hit and those are the people who are skeptical. I’ve tried the beauty cream, I’ve tried the beauty serum, I’ve tried the beauty facemask I’ve tried the beauty scrub, I’ve tried the electric laser therapy, I’ve tried the like all the things to make me look 30 instead of 40. Right, tried all the things and nothing is working. So how do I know that this product will work? Right? And you have to and that’s where that the capability part comes in. And that’s where they kind of start tying in right? on all of them. You tie in the five logical levels to the five customer awareness levels, and see where your psychology is, if your customer

Norman Ferrar  53:33  

will give Kelsey a, some homework today to post those five levels. And we’ll we’ll make sure that you were quoted in it.

Diane Boerstler  53:43  

Thank you. I told him I’d write some blog. He was asking if I could write some blog articles. I said absolutely. Oh, let’s, let’s help people. It’s for some people. Seeing it. And writing makes a lot more sense than hearing me talk at 400 miles an hour, right? Yeah. Okay. So let’s get into some questions. I’m sure there is a few. That’s my favorite part.

Kelsey  54:03  

Bring it. There are a few for sure. I also I think we broke a record for amount of entries today. I’ve been non stop just typing in names. So thank you, everyone. But yeah, if you want to see Diane back, hit that. hit those like buttons. And yeah, tell us what you want to hear. And yeah, let’s jump into the questions from Kyle. I have a seasonal product that changes every few months. We’re different people markets will buy it, should I swap out the keywords in the title to speak to them or keep them all at all times. Keep them all in.

Diane Boerstler  54:40  

So that would depend on why they’re changing the reason they buy it. And that makes me wonder why you don’t just have the same product under two different brands for two different rhotic anchors and selling to both markets. Because you’re going to use the same amount of storage space you would just split and then actually get to maximize without having to change out double rank for both keywords acquire the customers in the backend part of the information. And then cross market both your brand products. But otherwise, yeah, if you want the simple thing and you can swap out the keywords in the title to speak to them. Yeah. But you need to know you have to know your cycles first, right? I’m assuming Kyle, you know your business cycles. Well here, we’ll see if he responds back a

Kelsey  55:17  

comment. So bring it back up. Okay, so our next one is from Huisman, when you optimize a listing to immediately take effect and how much conversions increase after the optimization,

Diane Boerstler  55:31  

we optimize a listing does it immediately take effect that depends on how Amazon search engines are feeling that day. So um, there’s so many different points to optimizing listing. So not always, but we hope that Amazon, you know, at least indexes a good percentage of it within 48 hours, how much conversion is an increase after optimization, it depends on where you’re at, and where you’re starting from, what the competition is, so my average conversions are like 37%, for my listings, some people are only like, 18%, because they’re in high, you know, they’re in very high competition markets, like bully sticks, or maybe they’re doing an anti aging cream, right? Amazon’s average conversions for writing your own listing or for hiring a standard copywriter is 6%. So it just depends, what I run off of is what I call the teknicks guarantee, which means you’re guaranteed to make 10 times more in revenue, then you invest with me within six months of hiring me for optimization, and then you have 365 days unlimited edits. So really, there’s no like, one. I know everybody wants to solidedge but there’s only one Okay, well, if you do this, your listings gonna go 50% we don’t have enough data, we’re working on creating something that allows us access to that data, but the Google Cloud alone for that cost $150,000 a month? In order to have an answer to that question, we’d have to be able to monitor the conversions of every top performing listing on page one for every single major high volume keyword, and then go down from there. And that’s just a lot of data. So there’s no one solid answer, but we’re working on it. Someday, we will have that.

Kelsey  57:03  

Alright, okay. Let’s see from which you start with your strategy work, whatever the product is, for example, what if there’s a product you think is a good choice as a product? Would you still go ahead and work with them? Or would you decline?

Diane Boerstler  57:17  

Why would you not make the choices of products? So if there’s low search volume, okay, so there’s a couple, okay, so I like a good challenge, right and love a good challenge. So I don’t look at products, the only reason a product is not a good choice as a product, if you’ve already ordered it, and you’re stuck in the muck and you spent all your money is if it’s bad for your customers, right? Your job with your product is to do the best cam for your customers. And then, of course, on your end to maximize sales. So I would look at the different ways you can reposition that product. What else? Can you sell it as? Who else can you sell it to? What other keywords? Can you be using? Can you group it with another product? Can you JV with another seller and sell it together with something where it makes sense where you’re both making money off of it, right? It’s not just always about selling your one product that you’ve purchased. Because a lot of people the first product they choose, it’s not a homerun, right, or the second or the third or the fourth or the fifth? It just makes them a little bit of money so they can scale up. Right. So I would say the only way it’s a really bad product is if it doesn’t have the features and benefits that the consumer needs. Or it’s a lie to the consumer, because it doesn’t actually do as you say it does, which those are ones I don’t touch, like I will we don’t lie about what something does. Right? Because will hurt the consumer and you know, that’ll hurt your business. And that’s against my ethical code. So,

Norman Ferrar  58:34  

yeah, you know, and I’m not ever worried about going up against a low cost, usually Chinese sellers. Yeah, we build out not only in copy, but the perceived value. So yeah, you know, there’s some people and I’ve talked to a lot of people feel that a lot of set seller or by buyers are all buying low end, it’s all about price. And that has to do with it. You can you can go there are going to be a lot of people making pennies. But I can show you a million examples of where just packaging and perception copy makes the perception.

Diane Boerstler  59:13  

Exactly. Well. And here’s the thing, guys, so the average person who the average family that buys off of Amazon, these are not the people who are necessarily they’re not looking for low cost or looking for value, right about positioning like Pete I mean, there’s a lot of us people don’t really have that the average consumer looking for value is actually in the upper middle class, upper, the upper section of the middle class sector on Amazon. Now those are the ones looking for like the mugs and the shirts and things like that. We’re talking to people looking for high quality premium products. And the average Amazon consumer who makes good money will spend a lot more for value and to showcase their identity and Firstly, that works then they’ll ever spend on a Chinese cheap crap knockoff like no one in my house is ever gonna buy anything like that no one in my neighborhood will. I don’t know anybody who will buy those products. Except for you know, not your customer. And remember that not every customer is your customer, you don’t want to try to ever cater to the people who are looking to get the most out of you for the least amount of money, right? That’s not good for you. It’s not good for your family, it’s not good for your business, and it’s not good for them. Right? So go for the people who you know what your products going to be best for, and have confidence that it’s an amazing product, you know, and position it as such, and then sell it and scale. You know, that’s this is a real thing. Like we’re not buying widgets and for $1 and selling it for $3. You know, and competing with China. We’re really like every product we have is out there trying to solve a problem for somebody.

Norman Ferrar  1:00:40  

You know, my be the beard comb. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it. It’s just the sandalwood comb. I don’t have it around right now. But I bought it for 79 cents. Okay, on on Amazon. There was another 111 9511 one another one at 1795 was the same beard comb. Package different. I just went on to Amazon. And I saw this 79 cent beard comb branded, I think was the Art of Shaving or something or shaving. Yeah. $30. Yep.

Diane Boerstler  1:01:14  

And they’re selling it. It’s the same beard comb like crazy. Yes, identical. It’s positioning. Art of Shaving has anchored themselves as a brand that really cares about their customer. And these tiny the Chinese companies and not know if anybody’s from a Chinese company, or any, you know, manufacturing company, a lot of the people who are trying to compete with American Amazon sellers, or sellers who are selling on Amazon, USA, they they don’t have the time to care. They’re mass production. And you’ll always have the people who buy from mass production. And that’s okay, those same people go to the dollar store a lot and buy stuff that you know, for like a month, and that’s totally fine. It takes all types, right. But if you show your people that you care, you can sell something, not necessarily a column without a million dollars in marketing, like Art of Shaving, you can sell something for a lot more, right and be reasonable about it. Like try to position yourself midway in the market. Don’t try to sell a comb for $50 tomorrow that you bought for $1 if you don’t know how to position correctly, right, that’s not something I’ve encouraged. But yeah, you know,

Norman Ferrar  1:02:14  

what’s his weight? That 79 cent comb was on Amazon? Yes. That’s it. Like I can actually show you 79 cents. I don’t know why or how, if you go on to Amazon right now. And you’ll see that that 79 cent, I think you get two for 139 or something? I don’t know. I don’t know how or what or you know, where they made their money because there’s Amazon fees. So anyways, next question. Okay, from Victor,

Kelsey  1:02:45  

how do you handle core functions, because a nine ignores them.

Diane Boerstler 1:02:51  

A plurals they’ll still see a singular, so we just put them in as you would naturally speak them. Because your best friend wouldn’t stop using an S on the end of something because, you know, suddenly Amazon decides they shouldn’t. And we’re looking a lot of conversions. And then conjunctions, same things, um, Amazon, it says, a night ignores them. But we found that, you know, there’s a conjunction in a keyword search term, which there usually isn’t, right. Um, Amazon socket, ignore that. But I mean, I would love an example of a conjunction a keyword search term that’s high volume enough to worry about that you can’t just advertise for on the back end.

Kelsey  1:03:30  

Okay, right. From an idiot on two wheels. So neurolinguistics is how to induce confidence.

Diane Boerstler  1:03:38  

Oh, no,

Diane Boerstler  1:03:39  

it looks like there’s a YouTube channel. I’m gonna go look at that after this. Okay, sorry. Go ahead. competence of the people who to use? Oh, well, that’s something you can do with neuro linguistic programming. That’s a very small part of it. But yeah, it’s important to induce confidence in the people that that your product will give them the results and that they will be able to use it to get those results. Yeah.

Kelsey  1:04:00  

Okay, awesome. From Omar, I am entering a market where I’m adding an added value product to my main product, should I also attempt to rank on both of them or just on the main product since the added value product has a different market?

Diane Boerstler  1:04:12  

And Mark, you’re it’s gonna vary wildly depends. You’re gonna have to contact me I’m getting norm. Do you have my email address? Yes. Okay. Yeah, normal. Make sure you guys get the email address and then contact me and I’ll look at the products for you and let you know what to do because I we can’t it’s like, that’s, that’s a you need an expert’s. Yeah. Let’s you want to talk about the products are right now. And then I can go tell you. I never I never advocate for adding a product just for the sake of adding a product to add value because just because you spent more money and you’re adding a product doesn’t necessarily mean the customer will see it as higher value. Right. So just a basic on that one.

Kelsey  1:04:50  

Okay. Okay. This is just a little comment from Marcia. Well, it’s a bit reassuring to hear that you two experts can get a straight answer from Amazon. They’re the craziest company ever. To try to work with Holy cow, they’re at me day by day. Oh, I love you so much.

Diane Boerstler  1:05:05  

I swear to God, yeah, Amazon is, um, they are, like I said, I spent the last few years helping people reposition. So all their eggs aren’t just their Amazon basket, like into their own sales funnels, and, you know, growing their companies and things like that, because Amazon will ask you well know, well, you know, Amazon slap you and knock you off. And like I had a client a couple of months ago where they just didn’t even tell him they got to notice that they had just taken and burned all their products. Yeah, because some random factory somewhere had some ingredient that wasn’t even involved with them wasn’t a factory, everything that there was made in the US. And they had to go after Amazon, like I’ve met so many lovely attorneys who specialize in Amazon and business growth this point time, like, Amazon has, you know, they’re, but they’re so big, you know, but there’s, there’s no such thing as too big to fail, as we found out in like, 2008, you know, 2011. So we always got to keep an eye out there just a platform where you can sell your product, that’s not the only place you should be selling your product ever. Right. So I see that Victor had an answer I

Kelsey 1:06:02  

so he said, I meant duplicating those. So for example, dog leash and collar versus dog leash collar,

Diane Boerstler  1:06:09  

I put it in its natural language. But if we have a better keyword than dog leash and collar dog leash collar that makes more sense analytically, to put in there than I would just put in one or the other. It depends on the analytics, what the macros say, you know, we have to follow the numbers and follow the money. So in that particular case, like if dog leash and collar, you know, was we found out that it was a much better way to rank than Moody’s dog, leash and collar. And we might also use dog leash collar as well. It just depends on That’s why every listing is it’s so different people want specific answers. And like, if you’re talking about positioning, yes, if you’re talking about keywords that have to actually go and look at all the data, right? And Amazon also changes like people say, oh, a nine, it’s one ranking algorithm, and it does one thing. No, a nine is, is there’s no mutually exclusive way that a nine works. It’s a whole ton of different AI is working in the background. And that’s why you see some people using anti aging and some people can’t. And some people using antimicrobial anti bacterial get away with it, and some people can’t. Because it’s it’s a whole collection of AI bots. It’s not just like one, people think of it as like one freeway, right? Like there’s one freeway, if Amazon only had one freeway for all that traffic to drive through, they would collapse and freeze every single day. There’s multiple and not all of them are optimized the exact same way, because you’ve got a ton of different programmers working on all of them, and none of the people to double check it. Interesting thing. Did you know that Amazon’s AWS makes them way more money per dollar spent right now then all of their private label sellers per dollar spent and so they’ve actually been funneling all of their money towards their AWS and green that service as opposed to funneling it towards all the private label sellers. Just maybe another reason to think about diversifying just right. Sorry.

Kelsey  1:07:51  

Okay. Okay, so we just have a couple more questions left, I think there’s one or two. But I also want to say if you guys are, I noticed a lot of new people in the comment section. So if you guys are new to this, you we have a Facebook group called lunch with norm Amazon FBA and ecommerce collective. So you can go over there, we have a great community right now. And it’s a great place to engage. And a lot of the guests are the members as well. So if you have a question, you can always just ask it on the board. And I’ll put the link in the bio, or in the comment section. But uh, our next question is from Jessica Rabbit. I believe this is Rosalyn, do you start with the copy and match the photos? or start with the photos and match the copy to them?

Diane Boerstler  1:08:31  

Start with the copy match the photos? Right? Are you talking, I’m assuming you’re talking about the minimum delivery images. So I provide image guidance for ABC and a plus. And then it’s a separate package, usually for main and auxiliary image guidance. So, um, I always start with the copy. And then I tell people what to do for the photos, right. So some people do customize photos, some people go and grab a ton of, you know, stock images. Some people already have photos available. So I just tell them, everything needs to be in the photo on the photo, you know, in terms of seals, guarantees, etc, etc, etc, etc. So but I always start with a copy because to me, it just makes more sense to look at the words you need to convince somebody to do something. We have proven time and time again, we can have one main image and killer sales copy and convert better than someone with a whole bunch of images and no sales copy over and over and over again. Because people take the image and they say, well, we can interpret this as 1000 different words. So the first thing we need to do is think of what are the words we want them to interpret it as, right what do we need them to believe? And then we add the image that helps to anchor that belief behind it not say here’s the image. Let’s write something cool on top of it, because we like the image, right. Okay, same question. Sorry. I feel like my voice is gonna get bronchitis for like a month. I’m sorry. I’m like, Oh my god, now you’re doing fine. You’re doing great.

Kelsey  1:09:55  

Alright, so our last question is from A to Z. Do you review the conversions with clients after a certain period, say three months? Or do you only assess the clients contact you back again,

Diane Boerstler  1:10:08  

I only assess clients contact me back again. And right now I have roughly 8000 clients I’ve worked with, across all sales copy spectrums, including Amazon. And so if I were to check in with 1000 people every single month, I wouldn’t have been able to write high converting copy. So if someone has an issue with their conversion, they think, Okay, well, I think we should be converting higher, I can take a look at that. But we have a 97% success rate of increasing conversion to the point where everybody’s super happy about it. So if there’s part of that 3%, they’re welcome to come back and contact me. But I haven’t heard this year, one time in the last year, I’ve had one person come to me out of all of the people I’ve worked with and said, I don’t feel like conversions are doing well. So can we look at this. And we took a look at it. And we realized that it was conversions for specific keywords weren’t doing well, they had dropped. And that’s because Amazon had decided that they were no longer allowed to advertise for those keywords. And it was in the male supplement industry where they move them into a different category. So yeah, but then people can check back in and we can always take a look at it and see if there’s a way to improve it.

Kelsey  1:11:12  

Okay, great. And just mentioned about the prize. So if you are, of course, if you take two people, you get an extra entry. But what we don’t want to have happen is people using several different accounts as the same person and getting votes that way. So it’s one person per vote. So if you do if we do find out that you’ve been using multiple accounts, you’ll won’t be able to enter any more. So just let everyone know, we just want this to be fair for everyone. Kelsey, nickname is badass. Raka on. Okay. Diane wrote me a great hypnotic copy. And I love it. Do you have any photographers you would recommend? Yeah, we got Taylor Boone. She was there’s

Diane Boerstler  1:11:59  

so many how you can raise your hand if you’re an awesome photographer on this podcast. There’s some really amazing ones that I always advise that I can recommend them. But you guys have so many. Like, fellow am I’m really big on a rising tide lifts all boats, right. So you have so many fellow Amazon sellers who do this, um, who will sell on Amazon and they’re also they’ve developed a passion for photography along the way. And they you want someone who understands Amazon and has a passion for photography, like I would totally like if you have people raise their hands on this podcast because I don’t want to, you know, like, I’m sure there’s many people on here. Yeah, no, there. has an amazing one as well. Who’s that? Yeah, Marsha. That’s Taylor. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a telephone. Yeah, that’s what’s trying to think of like, yeah, Marsha has an amazing copyright or amazing photographer.

Norman Ferrar 1:12:48  

And she put together a few packages for lunch with norm too. So yeah, we just go to the site and you’ll be able to see the different packages that she put together. Also, I saw something in the comments about do we have an SLP on the the keywords I know Steven Pope gave us Phase One, two and three if you want to go and take a look on the blog. I don’t know if Diane has an SLP or anything for the way that you do your I mean, it sounds

Diane Boerstler  1:13:21  

sloppy for everything. I haven’t recipe for how we load the dishwasher. Well I have an SLP on how to make a cup of coffee I do to peanut butter jelly sandwich yes I like you so much.

Diane Boerstler  1:13:33  

126 points check the checklist for that kind of thing. Yes. I’m not kidding. I will show you my kids checklists which have an SRP to the right hand side of it like that Yes, I can I can all look at what I have and like if the first one to be more specific they can email me and then I’ll just shoot you over what I shoot them

Norman Ferrar  1:13:53  

okay, so there are people that are going to be wanting to contact you they get ahold of you

Diane Boerstler  1:14:01  

thing go to hypnotic Amazon copywriter calm and just click on Help Desk I still to this day manage my own help desk that is changing very shortly because it’s just gonna be really busy. They can go to Diane at Amazon sales guru.com with or Diana NLP hypnotherapy.com I answer both of those. You can definitely look me up on Facebook and just shoot me a message there if that’s easier for you. Yeah, don’t don’t try to get me on LinkedIn though. Because I keep forgetting to check those messages. I’m still getting used to that. That’s you know, my one thing is like if you want to wait a while go to LinkedIn because I’m getting bombarded by businesses there who want me to acquire them and help them grow. So it’s like ah, Amazon was telling you guys here, this is the way to grow. Contact me on LinkedIn.

Norman Ferrar 1:14:44  

Perfect. Okay, so I guess it’s a bit of that time I think it is close. Okay, should we go to the the 14 $100.15 $100 giveaway?

Kelsey  1:14:57  

Well, just a second. We got to play the song of course. Oh, All right, we’re making a we are. Wow. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Alright, so this is for the we’ll have Kelsey, this is the 1497. Okay, package so I’m gonna just shuffle the names. We got this is a record one last time. I think I see Marsha in there bunch. yet. So if they take a person, they get an extra. Yes, yeah. So we got a bunch of people here. So here we go. 321

Norman Ferrar  1:15:46  

Fingers crossed. Here we go. I can’t I mean, I don’t I can’t even read anything. Oh, Jason. Jason. All right. Congratulations, Jason. Contact me. We will talk. So probably the best thing to do is just contact Kelsey k at lunch with norm calm, and he’ll make sure that you get that information. So congrats. You just won a 15 $100 package. So awesome. Okay, let’s go for the big one. The $25,000 one. Oh, wait, no, that’s the same one. Just a second. Oh, Kelsey, do your job. Come on. It doesn’t. It doesn’t differentiate Just a second.

Diane Boerstler  1:16:34  

I can’t wait to see who wins this time there got to have their like mind wildly blown by what they could do with their econ business.

Kelsey 1:16:40  

Okay, here we go. So we got a lot of entries here. All right, let’s roll it. Fingers crossed.

Norman Ferrar  1:16:48  

Okay. wins. I kind of feel like you guys have rigged it. Oh my god. Looks like I won the beard guy. Incredible bonus. Okay, congrats, norm. Yes, kidding. Yeah. How many people have like got their things out? Like, like what’s going on here?

Kelsey  1:17:17  

Alright, so I’m shuffling everyone here. All right. This is the big 25,003 to one.

Norman Ferrar  1:17:24  

I guess we’re doing a $95 package. Yes. Who’s gonna win? Okay, jungle ops. I don’t know who that is. What’s the whose name?

Kelsey 1:17:40  

That is a YouTuber, I believe. So again, hey, email me at K at lunch with norm calm, and I’ll connect you to Brad’s congratula. I can’t wait to see. Yeah.

Norman Ferrar  1:17:57  

So Alright, so we did it that that is the biggest giveaway we’ve ever had. I, man, I really appreciate you coming back on I appreciate your, you know your generosity to with Yeah. So I think just a quick note, I know we were running late, like we always do. But we want to just let people know that we are coming up with a few different things. We’ve got a Patreon site that’s going to be launching very soon. So we’ll give you all the details on that. Also, some big news, we were doing our we’ve changed our clubhouse. So we’ve teamed up with one of the the largest group in clubhouse, and its hero for entrepreneurs is called startup club. And we have our weekly slot Thursdays at one o’clock if you want to join us. It’s not just about Amazon, it’s about growing your business. It’s about you know, being successful online. So it’s actually called eecom Weekly, learn how to sell, learn how to learn how to sell online there. That’s generic enough. And you know, if you want to join us again, that’s one o’clock Thursday, Eastern Standard times. Other than that, Kelsey, what do we have?

Kelsey  1:19:16  

Okay, well, first off, I want to say a big thank you to all of our listeners. And I just love our community. Like, you know, I think some communities if we have a big giveaway, they, you know, be spiteful that they didn’t win, but our whole group is just congratulating each other. So that’s really great to see. So again, we have a Facebook group, lunch with norm Amazon FBA and e commerce collective. I’m posting the link right now. So definitely join. Join the community. We’ve got a good little family going right now. And it’s always great to see everyone and engage people and engage with people and yeah, of course smash smash those like buttons. Check out our new templates that we’re using on our YouTube channel. They’re great Think though they’re a little more eye catching. That’s just Norman Farrar. You can just search lunch with norm. We’ve got over 300 videos so you can go see anything. So we have Diane bolsters past episode Taylor boom, we have all the good stuff up there if you’re interested. So, yeah.

Norman Ferrar  1:20:18  

Okay, so that’s it for today people. Thank you for joining join us every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, eastern standard time at noon. And like Kelsey said, we can’t do this without you. Thank you so much for being part of the community and enjoy the rest of your day. Entrepreneurs

Transcribed by https://otter.ai