Today is the last Lunch with Norm of the year! On this special episode we recap everything that made 2021 an amazing/terrible year for sellers. We have several special guests joining us to discuss their favorite golden nuggets of 2021. We also discuss the best Lunch With Norm moments of the year. Looking back only helps us move forward, we send the best of wishes to all our listeners for 2022, and hope we can help you get to your selling goals of the year!
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Episode: 240
Title: Norman Farrar Introduces Rael Cline, Co-founder/CEO of Nozzle
Subtitle: “The HEAVY Price Amazon Sellers For Not Knowing Their Customers!”
Final Show Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J9LODFz-wI
Back on Lunch with Norm…In this episode, learn how to understand your Amazon customers and find out what Amazon sellers should be measuring to understand their customers. We breakdownt the mistakes other sellers are making so you don’t have to!Co-founder and CEO of Nozzle AL Rael Cline started his career in private equity finance but realized he would rather have more fun building companies. He’s now focused on the Amazon ecosystem with London-based Nozzle.
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Norman Farrar 0:01
Hey everyone, it’s Norman Farrar, aka the beard guy here and welcome to another lunch with Norm the Amazon FBA and Ecommerce podcast.
Norman Farrar 0:20
Okay, we’re starting off the new year, right, we’ve got another great show for you today, we’re going to be talking about and this is something we’ve never talked about the heavy price of Amazon’s pay for not knowing their customers. So we’ve got a special guest today. Rael Cline, and he has his career started as a private equity finance guy. And he realized quite quickly that he wanted to get into something else. So after starting to build an existing company, he started to focus on Amazon, the Amazon ecosystem, with a London based company called nozzle. Anyways, real Klein will be joining us shortly. But before we get to Rael, it’s going to be a word from our sponsor. Thank you ZEE. CO for sponsoring this episode of lunch with Norm. Are you looking to take your ecommerce business from local to global, you can with the help of z and their brand new app. That’s right. You can track live shipments with push notifications. Get detailed lead times for each stage of your shipment, and store all compliance and VAT reclaim documents in the palm of your hand. All while listening to lunch with Norm. Ready to expand your Ecommerce empire. And take your Amazon FBA business global. Use the link in the description to learn more about ZEE’s new app that’s now available on desktop and mobile. That’s zee.co. ZEE.CO. Okay. Where’s the square?
Kelsey 1:59
That is man. Hello. How are you doing?
Norman Farrar 2:02
I’m doing pretty good. How’s trauma treated? Yeah,
Kelsey 2:05
it’s doing fantastic. It’s still pretty cold and snowy. So yeah. Missing North Carolina for sure.
Norman Farrar 2:14
But yeah, me too.
Kelsey 2:16
Yeah. Welcome, everyone. Welcome TK Kim, how are you? He was one of the winners for the chocolate, we’re going to be setting him up. Rad Amar and, Jeff, thanks again, fellas for setting up the Facebook group and having all the quality content. Thank you, Jeff. We’re glad you are appreciating it and a part of it. The community is nothing without our beer Nation members. So we really love to see the community that’s kind of growing there. So glad you’re enjoying it. If you guys aren’t part of it, you can check out lunch with Norm Amazon FBA and E commerce collective. That’s the Facebook group. So check it out. Let us know what you think. And yeah, also, don’t forget to smash those like buttons, give us those thumbs up, we’d really appreciate it. Also, if you smash smash Smash. If you’re watching from YouTube, hit that subscribe button. And don’t forget to hit the little bell next to it. And if you’re watching from Facebook, the three dots and click on the push notifications, and that will get you all the notifications once once we go live. So welcome Simon to the show as well. Good to see you. And yeah, we can jump into it. And I think it’s gonna be a great episode.
Norman Farrar 3:29
Okay. All right. So if you do have any questions, throw them over in the comment section. And hopefully you do we love the engagement. Now sit back, relax, grab a cup of coffee, and enjoy the show. Welcome Raelle.
Rael Cline 3:44
Hey, guys, thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here.
Norman Farrar 3:47
Yeah, it’s great to having you. This is a great topic, by the way.
Rael Cline 3:51
Yeah, it’s something that’s not really spoken about all that much, but rarely makes such a huge difference when you really uncover what’s going on and what you can and can’t do and how to make good use of it. So yeah, very much looking forward to the conversation.
Norman Farrar 4:05
So I know I didn’t cover it in detail. But for those of us who may not know who you are, what do you do? What’s your, well, I know your name already. But you know, let’s let’s get a little bit of your background.
Rael Cline 4:16
Yeah, what it says in my title and what I do, yeah, it can be, you know, very different things now. So, currently, I am a co founder of a company called muscle and we help Amazon sellers really understand their customers who is it that’s buying from them, and we paint a picture of who their customers are and then crucially how to use that data to grow your business right to achieve your goals on Amazon. Prior to that, as you said in the intro, my background is a little bit a little bit strange. Let’s say I started out in in the finance world actually with private equity so a lot of time in Excel and building financial models and you know, things like that. I wasn’t a good fit for various reasons. You know, Companies kind of exist in spreadsheets as opposed to more tangible things. And so I made the move to well, actually, I studied first I actually studied a master’s in finance. I was kind of all in on the finance thing. And then after studying deciding that I don’t want to do this anymore, as you do. Yeah. Yeah, kind of expensive way to learn now. But, so I got out of finance, and I’m South African. So maybe, but the streets explains the weird accent there. But I went back to South Africa for a year did a tech startup, they’re boring sort of telco, telco land. But yeah, came to the UK and started a company in London, really focused on online advertising, but nothing to do with Amazon at that point, right, very much. The wider Amazon Echo, sorry, the wider advertising ecosystem, showing display ads across the internet, and very, very tech focused. So we would write custom algorithms to to bid in these auctions, right? Whenever you submit a CPC, or whatever it is. So I exited that business, but really quite quickly landed on Amazon for for the next thing that I wanted to do. And the reason for that is, if I go back to that previous business, and really focus on the stuff that worked really well, it was those brands that were focused not just on the advertising side, but what happened after the ad, right. So someone clicks on the ad, they install the app, or they sign up to your product, whatever it is, but you really want to be tracking them for however long, you know, that they’re actually have a relationship with you they buy three times in a year, or they buy, you know, twice in two years, or whatever it is, and those brands that did a good job of that were the most successful ones. And so when it came time to start a new company, you know, where else can we apply this, this principle, right and quickly landed on on Amazon, because they’ve got a closed ecosystem, they’ve got the advertising side, and they’re clearly got all the retail data around what happens after somebody just buys, you know, once, twice, three times. And looking at the ecosystem, there weren’t really any tools for sellers to be able to uncover all of this sort of information. And so we thought that was a really good opportunity. There plenty of really good tools in the Amazon ecosystem around effort, you know, advertising around operational inventory, and you know, profit and loss and all those sort of things. But for us, focusing on the customers should really be a starting point, I’m sure we’ll talk you know, a lot of a lot more about this, but focusing on who’s buying from you should really be the starting point in, you know, building the building blocks of success on Amazon.
Norman Farrar 7:37
Now, does nozzle focus on Amazon alone, or do they get into the Shopify side? Or Walmart?
Rael Cline 7:44
Yeah. So for the moment, it’s just Amazon. But we’re obviously looking into other marketplaces, and Shopify and all those things, right. And, you know, people quite rightly say, This is great that we can do this for Amazon. But, you know, ultimately, I’ve got customers on all other channels, and sometimes they help across channels. And, you know, can you give me insights into, into what’s going on across channels and all that? So yeah, it’s clearly within our roadmap, but for the moment today, we’re just on Amazon.
Norman Farrar 8:08
Okay, this is fantastic. Because, you know, we’ve talked about this on the podcast before about understanding your customer, understanding the demographic, you know, we, we talk about social media, and how we can get the information, extract the information out of them out of different social platforms using different apps. But this is very unique. You know, for Amazon, matter of fact, I don’t know, I don’t think any app comes to mind. That does what you’re doing. So I like to, like circle back later on in the episode. But let’s just talk about, you know, the importance of knowing your customer.
Rael Cline 8:51
Yeah, absolutely. That’s, I mean, that’s the reason why we exist, right, is we think this is just such a fundamental point. So if we take a step back and just take a look at where we are today, being a seller in the Amazon ecosystem, it’s getting really tough to do well, right to succeed, and it’s just getting tougher. So you’ve got multiple things that are going on, you’ve got some things that are just sort of environmental, just a wider sort of ecosystem, what’s going on in the world. And then you’ve got stuff that’s Amazon related. So you know, clearly the supply chain and all the headaches that that, you know, kind of aren’t even going away anytime soon, frankly, you know that that’s a real, real big issue. But within the Amazon ecosystem, it’s getting a lot tougher as well. So you’ve got, for instance, you’ve got many more sellers that are entering the market every single day. You’ve got very well funded sellers and competitors. That right. Yeah, so you’ve got two aggregators that I mean, every day, the numbers change, because it’s just more and more money raised, but there’s something like 12 and a half $13 billion that have been raised. So you know, what happens if one of your competitors is bought by an aggregator and now you’re thinking, Gosh, how do I compete against such a well funded competitor, right? You’ve got some of the referral fees and things like adjustments on Amazon fees actually going up. And so it’s becoming a lot harder to be profitable, and to win on Amazon. And so for us, we, you know, take a step back and say, well, it’s no longer good enough to just sell products on Amazon, you need to be able to build a brand on Amazon, particularly if you have the view that you ultimately want to sell this in the future, you know, people want to buy brands, people don’t want to just buy sort of a collection of products, right, you’ll get a higher valuation a better price, for those sort of things. And if you think about what does it mean, to build a brand, there many ways to measure this, there are many ways to define this. But for us, one of the main things has got to be loyal customers, right. And loyalty, for us means people who, you know, buy again. And so taking this to the next step, our tool will measure, you know, the behavior of your customers around things like what we call profit per customer, or customer lifetime value. So we would say, you know, on average people buy four times in a year, and your total profit per customer is whatever, you know, $50, or whatever it is, across all four of those purchases, we would do things like hey, 1000 people bought your product once, but actually only 50 people bought it twice. Right? What is your retention rate of the products? We’ll do things like if someone bought your the first time they bought a product that was Product A when they bought again? Was it Product A again? Or was it product B again, or product B rather. And so you know, understanding the behavior and the purchasing patterns, not just what people say, but what they do, and where they put their money, for us is the clearest signal, you know, of building a brand and being successful on Amazon. So we give all this sort of information, and crucially, what to do with it. Okay, what, you know, what do I do, knowing that my profit per customers $50? What does that actually mean? And so we give you the tools to understand how to execute on that. And we can we can obviously talk about all those things. But yeah, that’s kind of like our sort of reason thinking of landing on doing what we’re doing. You know,
Norman Farrar 12:12
I’m wondering if because I I’ve had, I’ve had clients matter of fact, the last episode, we were talking about a client that I had that had 280,000 emails that he’s gathered from his clients, or from his customers, right? He’s never utilized it. Why? Well, yeah. These were clean emails. Yeah, never utilize the ones. Now, if you go back to what you’re thinking about, or what you do in on Amazon, and you’re getting that information, and you’re finding out who the customer is, what kind of additional sales could somebody expect, by understanding their customer?
Rael Cline 12:51
Yeah, so one of the one of the most impactful metrics that we that we do is this idea of going from the first to the second purchase, right? So to use my kind of early example, 1000, people buy your product once, and let’s say 150 People buy again. So that’s is ultimately a customer retention rate of 15%, right of people then go buy twice. So what we found that if you increase that, that 15% to 16%, so just 1%, up right to 60%. So that’s 160 people instead of 150 people that impacts your profits by 7%. Right, so it’s a 7x multiplier on profits, not on revenue on profits. And so, you know, really like, understanding how you can retain customers, because Sure, some of them might just buy twice, but actually, people who buy twice are much more likely to buy three times and then four times and then five times. And so that impact over time just compounds. And we found out that for a 1% increase of your retention rate from the first and second purchase results in a 7% increase in profits. So that’s the sort of impact, you know what we’re talking about? Yeah.
Norman Farrar 13:58
Wow. So before I forget, we have got and if you liked the topic, which if you’re a seller, you got to like this. I mean, you have to know your client, anyway, or your customer. Anyway, Rails got a great giveaway today. And I don’t know if you want to talk about it. But anyways, it’s going to be hashtag Kelsey, tag us twice. And you’ll get a second entry around what is your giveaway?
Rael Cline 14:27
Yeah. So, you know, we obviously have have our tool that you can sign up, you can get 50% of the first month and we’ll throw in a consultation with you to understand your business. You know, we come across this data every single day, we’ve seen people execute well we know what works, we know what doesn’t work. And so we’ll set up a 30 minute consultation to go through what we call a growth plan ultimately, right and say like, these are the products just for instance, you know, very often we will come across circumstances where you know, you’re the product that’s responsible for the most sales is nice Actually the product that your most valuable customers are buying, right? And so we can point these things out to you and say, Okay, you might want to think about switching up where you want to focus your your product portfolio and stuff like that, yeah, 30 minute consultation, we’ll do a deep dive into your business and tell you what to do with the data. So
Norman Farrar 15:16
we normally get a lot of different key consults from PPC, managed services, a bunch of different things. Yeah, this is very unique. So if you’ve never done we’ll have Kelsey before hashtag, we’ll have Kelsey, I tell you, if you’re spending a half hour with reality, you’re going to learn something. So we’re also going to sweeten the pot a little bit. If you’re in North America, we’ve got this gigantic box of chocolates. And we’ve got our latest 2022 calendar with myself and Tim Jordan that will send out so if you don’t, if you’re living outside of North America, enter anyways, and you will get that the consult and the 50% off. So it’s priceless. All right, so let’s talk a little bit further. Um, by the way, if you have custom questions about your customers, or what you should be looking for, you know, make sure you you throw it in the comment section, we’d love to hear from you. Okay, so I’m kind of curious. I want to make sure, first of all, and again, I’m gonna just go back to your app.
Rael Cline 16:20
But yes.
Norman Farrar 16:22
How can you get the information? And be within? TLS?
Rael Cline 16:27
Yeah, absolutely. crucial question. Right. So we’ve had to go through an extremely rigorous process around, you know, basically being for our specific use case, get a green light green light from Amazon, to do this, right. So yeah, completely, you know, TLS compliance. And we would use a combination of, I guess, algorithms to do this. So just to be very clear, in the app, we’re never gonna surface, anybody’s name, anybody’s email address, you know, none of that stuff, right? You’re gonna, you’re gonna know things like, of the people who signed up in January, this is how they did in the next six months, you know, you’re not going to know things like, Hey, mom did this, and mom did that. So that that’s that that’s, you definitely can’t surface any of that sort of information. So be very clear, we’re never going to expose anything that’s, you know, names and email address or anything along those lines.
Norman Farrar 17:16
So that’s cool to know. So you have been approved by Amazon? Correct. Okay, and the information that you’re going to extract the information that you’re going to be able to provide to the seller, what would that be?
Rael Cline 17:31
Yeah, so we focus on a couple of sort of what we call metrics. And this is the idea of profit per customer, right. And so just to give you an example, you know, Norman comes in in January buys buys a product, and you make a $5, profit off that product, he comes back in April buys, again, comes back in June comes back in December and buys, you know, the same thing, let’s say four times. And so your total profit is $20 over that year. And so why this is such a crucial, crucial metric, is it’s effectively saying that you can afford to spend up to $20 to acquire somebody like norm, if you’re willing to wait 12 months to break even. And so back on the advertising side, or the way up to the customer acquisition side, how are you going to acquire customers, using this profit per customer translates into the other side of the of the coin, as we call it around customer acquisition. And so, again, you know, the PPC environment is really tough, right, we’ve seen CPCs climbing up, they’re not going to be decreasing anytime soon. And it’s becoming more and more difficult to break, even on that first purchase. And if you’re looking, it’s a DTC or other channels. For a while, it’s been quite a common strategy to not break even on that first purchase. Because you’ve got the data to kind of inform you what to do, right? And so what we’re saying here is like, hey, maybe you can just wait three months to break, we’re not saying you have to wait 12 months, right? We saying that, hey, if you just wait three months, you know, people would have bought again, and you can actually spend, you thought you could your break even your breakeven a cost your breakeven row as you thought was, you know, 20%, or whatever, you know, it might be in a cost terms, but hey, it’s actually 40% If you just prepare to wait three months. And so that totally changes how you think about where to allocate your ad budgets on the PPC side, which you know, which products to go after. And frankly, you can be a lot more aggressive, a lot of the, you know, for instance, a lot of search terms that perhaps were way too expensive for you in the past may come into play now, now that you can, you know, afford 40% breakeven a cost instead of 20. And so that’s kind of one of the main metrics and use cases that we would use.
Norman Farrar 19:48
So the type of demographics that you’re pulling out of it, are you like his age? Is it gender? Yeah,
Rael Cline 19:57
so we’re not doing we’re not doing demographics. That stuff is like that. actually available to brand registered sellers anyway within the Amazon console. And so for us reproducing that information is not that valuable. And it’s not. It’s not particularly actionable, right? Like, for us, it’s always asking the question that yeah, I have this number have this metric like so what I’d like what am I meant to do with this number. And so with a demographic, it’s kind of nice that you can perhaps be first a few things. But nothing is like, such a solid signal is someone actually putting their money, you know, and buying something from you. So with demographics, you can with Amazon’s DSP, you can do demographic targeting, right. So you can, you know, translate it back on the advertising side within targeting rules. But on the PPC, you can’t really target you know, by demographics, at least not yet. And so, you know, it’s kind of limited in how you want to use it, I get my infirm started finding form some of your copywriting and how you want to do your listing, right. But it’s, again, it’s not like the strongest sort of signals. So, you know, we might one day bring it in when we can think of like, a really good, so what, um, the demographics, but for right now, it’s, it’s focused on, you know, where people put their money, basically, and what you can infer and do with that.
Norman Farrar 21:12
Okay, kind of important. Exactly.
Rael Cline 21:15
So that’s one of the metrics. The other other main metric would be customer retention rates, right? So I’ve just given you that example, where a 1% increase in the retention rate results in a 7% increase in your profit. So, you know, just measuring your retention rate over time, is it increasing? Is it decreasing? How do you improve that, right. So if you want to run a basic remarketing campaign to someone, you can, you can do that, right will give you the data to say, Hey, I ran, you know, I ran this, this particular remarketing campaign, and hey, I saw an increase in uplift in my retention rate by one or 2%, or, you know, whatever it may be. So, that’s pretty actionable and really good to track. And, you know, each product has its, you know, very different retention rates, right, ultimately, and if you, if you have the choice of, you know, where you want to focus your time and energy, your products with really good retention rates, perhaps they’re subscribing say, for instance, are really good candidates, right? Those are the ones that you can really afford to to invest in, and people will pay a price if you want to sell your business one day people. You know, people pay a premium for that. The third metric, which is quite interesting is this idea of what we call purchase journey. So I alluded to this a little earlier, where, if you come in and buy product A and you buy again, three months later, is it Product A again? Or is it product B? And so when people use this for is if you have a trial product? Do people buy the trial? And then go buy the full version? Right? What is that trial conversion rate, ultimately, and so we’ve had both ends, we’ve had customers where, you know, somebody’s selling a six pack of drinks, they sell six packs and 12 packs, the six packs that don’t make any money off, they’re trying to introduce people to the brand, and the hope is that they’ll go buy a 12 pack for the next purchase. But for instance, in this case, at least, people who bought six packs just carried on buying six packs, or they didn’t buy again. And so you know, we said to them, there’s no point and carry on with us, right kill kill their product. In other cases, this worked really well, where you’re selling dog products, you give a sample pack, and then people go buy the full version for the next purchase 28 trial 28% trial conversion ratio, you know, fantastic, you’re running all the way to the back kind of thing. So yeah, that’s those are kind of, of kind of the main use cases that we’re focused on for now.
Norman Farrar 23:35
Okay, so if a, if a seller doesn’t have your app, are there ways that they can track this themselves? Are there actionable items they can take?
Rael Cline 23:47
It is possible to do this, you need to be plugged into the API ecosystem to do that, right. So you need to register as a developer, you can’t do it. It’s just obviously kind of a lot of, I guess, time and effort to do that. But so you register as a developer, you get approved you to draw down the data, and, you know, decide how you want to, I guess, calculate and define all these sort of things. I mean, it is doable to do that. But I guess very often, we would say, Hey, we’re just sort of rather, you know, pay you 77 bucks a month, or whatever it is to go to go and do that. It’s just much easier and more accurate. And you know, that sort of stuff.
Norman Farrar 24:22
So I’m curious if you have any data on this, but for people who do try to do this on their own, like, what what are some of the common mistakes that they might make?
Rael Cline 24:33
Yes, so some of the mistakes are actually really to do with Amazon’s API. So API is just a way of like, automatically drawing down the data from Amazon, right? So you can get it into your own sort of ecosystem, your own database, or whatever it is. So Amazon’s API’s are very unclear on what things actually mean. And so we had to spend such a long time understanding those data sets Speaking to Amazon to clarify what they mean. And then I think going and sort of calculating something. So navigating the data, the shape of the data, the definitions, all that sort of stuff, I think is really, really tough. And people very much under estimate that, then, you know, at the end of the day, these are quite in some cases, I could profit per customer, you’ll come across quite a lot of edge cases, and you know, things like that. So like really understanding how you wanted to find these sort of things. You know, if somebody what happens if he has an edge case? I mean, we’re getting a little bit into the weeds, but he has an edge case, what happens if somebody for their first purchase buys two different products? Like how are you, you know, what is your profit per customer? For this? If they go buy this product? First? How do you attribute those sort of things, so you can get into like a bit of the weeds into into the data and all that sort of stuff. But this is we live and breathe this stuff. We know what best practice looks like, we’ve spoken to all the people that you know, and we’ve spoken to a lot of the founders and the managers and the brand managers, and everyone is doing that. And to figure out like, actually, what do you want to achieve on this, we can adjust, you know, the definition depending on what your goal is. And then, you know, arriving at what we think is a pretty robust and dependable definition of these sort of things. So yeah, I mean, I think that’s, it’s quite tricky on, you know, how you want to define and calculate these things as well. Okay, so
Norman Farrar 26:18
just a quick reminder, if you do want to try to enter the draw for the free 30 minute console with rail, and oh, I forgot to mention, it’s 50% off. Plus, there’s a 14 day free trial, plus the box of chocolate, if you’re in North America, and the 2020 calendar with Tim Jordan and myself. It’s hashtag we’ll have Kelsey tag two people, and you will get a second entry. So Kelsey, before we go any further, can we go to our sponsor, please? Thank you, solarize, for sponsoring this episode of lunch with Norm solarize is your comprehensive solution for your everyday business needs. Everything you need to grow and scale your Amazon business is just one click away. For more information, contact demon his team over at cellar eyes calm and remember, seller eyes is with one our just one our. Okay, so the the information, the other information I was thinking about? I know we kind of went through it before. But again, just to stress the point, the information that you will provide us or the information that’s extracted can help the supplier how?
Rael Cline 27:41
Yeah, I mean, ultimately, this informs building ultimately, it’s definitely forms building a much stronger business what this does the main the main, the core value proposition ultimately is really understanding how profitable is a customer of yours? And therefore how much can you spend to acquire a customer on Amazon. Right? And, and that has been rare. That is, you know, best practice in EECOM, outside of the Amazon ecosystem, just simply because the data is available to do that. But now we’re bringing this into the Amazon ecosystem, because it’s getting much, much harder to or more expensive to acquire customers on Amazon, right? Your PPC is going through the roof, and you’re having to spend more and more to acquire customers. And it’s getting much harder to break even on that first purchase. And so we’re giving you the information to say here are some alternatives, you can either, you know, cut down on sort of the high CPC search terms that might bring you some valuable customers, or here’s the information to say, Hey, if you just wait for, you know, three months or two purchases, turns out, you can spend double what you thought to acquire a customer, right? And so it’s always those sort of mirror images there. Number one, how profitable is a customer? And number two, therefore, how much can I actually spend to acquire a customer?
Norman Farrar 29:04
You know, there’s, we’re gonna get to I see there’s a few questions in there. But even off of Amazon, I just wanted to point this out. We’ve talked about it before, but you want to know your customer within Amazon. But if you can take that information, let’s say you drive it over to your site, and you’re extracting or getting that email, or your who are your Amazon or your your, your customers. And it’s so important for you to get to understand that and one way to do it is Rand Fishkin owns a app called spark Toro. Yeah. Oh, they’re fantastic. It’s a 10 minute training and you’re off to the races. So he’s great. You know, if you’re, if you’re listening, you know, check it out. I have no association. Randy’s been on before him. He’s an awesome guy, but he He went out there to really help you understand. And then what you can take with that information, just to make that much more inexpensive for you is you can plot a take that extract it, put it into Facebook, and then take that information and try to drive traffic over to a landing page or directly over to your Amazon page, where Amazon is now rewarding, you 10% up an average of 10% with their bonus referral program. So there’s not only is it better for you to understand the customer, but you get paid for understanding your customer. And the other thing is, like I sell soap, so different people buy different soaps. So it’s not only understanding the soap, like you might have a scent for men, a scent for ladies, you might have a typical, like a sport, it might have an earthy tone, you might end different people like patchy Ali, who buys patchily? Well, usually, you know, it’s the old hippie soap, you know, it’s people, you know, that like nature, you know,
Rael Cline 31:12
like when and when do they buy it? Right? Like, is it something that typically buy first from you? Or is it something that they typically, you know, buy second or third after you’ve gained a bit of trust in there, like your products? Right, right.
Norman Farrar 31:22
Yeah. And so you would like even with that information, your landing pages, if you’re driving people over to the landing pages wouldn’t be that much different. Then if you were like a mensen? You know, you think of Dr. Squatch. You know, there probably be a lot more, it’s probably a lot different. They know that they’re men, but what’s their demographic with that app? Yeah, it’ll tell you basically, who the influencers are, what the demographics are. Yeah. And it makes it easy to, you know, set up the interest and phase we
Rael Cline 31:55
use swag for just for our products. All right, when we launch our tool, like who’s, you know, in the Amazon ecosystem? Who should we know about? Who should be be talking to who should we target? Like, all that sort of stuff? I mean, that’s probably our customers for our tool. Yeah, I definitely use baltoro. So yeah.
Norman Farrar 32:08
Has it worked for you? Yeah, sure. Yeah. It’s so easy.
Rael Cline 32:12
He personally gets back on the emails as well. And so I emailed him, I think, like, one or two questions or clarification, whatever it is, and it’s very easy not to get back into shells. Very impressed. So yeah, I think kind of saying that, but like to believe it was.
Norman Farrar 32:28
Yeah. Just just like Neil Patel, right. Exactly. Oh, okay. So Kelsey, do we have any other questions here? I know we do.
Kelsey 32:40
Good. Yeah, we do. So Dr. Causes? Got a couple of questions. Yep. Folks are jumping on off Amazon, Google to comparing eBay, Shopify Walmart. For me the direct costs and tacos, coffee on single platform is becoming dubious. Any thoughts?
Rael Cline 33:00
Yeah, I mean, great question. It’s kind of the holy grail in many ways, right? Like a perfect attribution system across across platforms to say, you know, they first did this on Google, then two days later, they came on Amazon, then they went to a price comparison site, all that there’s been a whole industry since the beginning of online advertising, since the beginning of the 90s, people have been trying to come up with some unified solution, it is incredibly difficult to do I don’t believe it’s done properly. At the moment, in some ways, I don’t believe it can be done properly, simply because some of the major players in the ecosystem are closed, and they don’t allow you the data to actually stitch the whole journey together. Having said that, though, I do you know, it’s not it’s, it’s obviously, I guess, preferable to be 100% accurate, but in many ways, you just want to be the benchmark doesn’t have to be 100% accuracy, right? You can still make huge, hugely important, impactful decisions, if you are directionally correct, right, whether you’re 87% accurate versus 90%. Accurate. You know, you can still move the needle and 87%. Right. And so looking for like a perfect solution doesn’t exist. I do think something like the Amazon attribution tool is very interesting. It’s got some issues, it’s still very kind of early stage right now you have to do proper attribution as like an individual a certain level, you have to set up your campaigns on I don’t know, Google, Facebook, whatever it is, in a very specific way to be able to do that properly. But if they and I know they’re investing in it, but if the iterates properly on that, then I think that can become quite interesting, because that, you know, we’re exploring that as well. Because we want to capture all your ad spend, right? When we’re saying, hey, you know, you’re currently spending $10 to acquire a customer. We want to be able to say, you know, this much is coming from Facebook, this much is coming from Google. So the Amazon attribution tool, I think is really interesting as a good starting point to be able to do that. But out you know, outside of that, I think the big players are going to work with each other sufficiently to be able to do that. In in a really meaningful way, right? If anything, you know, Apple, or the iOS changes and how they’ve impacted Facebook, you know, that sort of stuff, I think is that’s kind of the direction that’s going. So I don’t think it’s going to be sold properly in anytime soon. But just focusing, I guess, on the Amazon listing by that attribution tool, I think, has done a reasonably good job. So far. It’s got some way to go. But I know they’re investing in it. So I’m pretty hopeful.
Norman Farrar 35:27
Yeah. And we’re seeing like, really great partnerships formed between Shopify Walmart and Google. So who knows what will happen there? That’s true, but that’s true. You know, I don’t know if you’ve noticed this. This is something that it’s really bizarre, but I’ll have and I’ve got a brand that’s on Amazon, most of the sales are off Amazon, believe it or not, and the high majority, like 96% of the sales. Okay. And if I take a look at who’s buying on Amazon, typically, who’s buying on Google? Who’s buy and it’s completely different people. Yep. It’s a different demographic.
Rael Cline 36:09
Yeah, I love I love that point. Right, because so much of the pushback against selling on Amazon is it’s effectively cannibalizing your b2c, your Shopify, for instance. Right. So we’ve heard a lot of resistance from DDC native founders or companies that say, Hey, you know, I don’t know the data, I don’t really have any insight into my customers, and it’s going to cannibalize, you know, I’m going to it’s going to cannibalize my Shopify data. And from really, from what we’ve seen, exactly, to your point is, it’s not cannibalizing, they’re just very different people that are buying your products, and actually is pretty complimentary. So yes, legally, you’re not going to in the customer, there’s probably never ever going to happen unless there’s some regulatory intervention or whatever. So you can forget about that. In terms of the insights, well, when we would say, of course, we would say this, but we would say, hey, there is actual parody now, between Shopify and Amazon, because of the sort of stuff that we’re doing, like here, the insights like what do you want to know about your customers? And then the third point is actually it doesn’t really cannibalize right? There actually, just to vary the overlap of customers is pretty, you know, pretty minimal. And so, you know, it’s changing the mindset is, is quite difficult, I’d say, in some cases, but from what we’ve seen, either here with you.
Norman Farrar 37:23
Yeah. And there are just certain products that it’s tougher to sell on Amazon, then on Shopify, or on Walmart, or
Rael Cline 37:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think what’s interesting is something that probably doesn’t get discussed enough, is, people always talk about product market fit, at least in the software world where, you know, you get enough adoption and people loving your product from, you know, escape velocity, and all those sort of things. But there’s also this concept of channel market fit, if you’re selling a product in EECOM. To your point, you know, you’ve got to have the right product for the right channel, right, and Amazon versus DTC are just very different beasts, very different types of people who are willing to do so, you know, that go through the extra friction of DTC compared to Amazon or, you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah, really thinking about this, this product really fit the Amazon ecosystem. I think a lot of people just sort of rush into launching things on Amazon without thinking about through property, ultimately,
Norman Farrar 38:19
yeah. And you know, it’s funny, we had Taylor offer on the other day, and you know, he talks about, I sell the mom and pop stores just 300,000 across the US, and I get paid immediately. Yeah, exactly. It’s Wow. Okay. We can’t forget those guys. Yeah,
Rael Cline 38:41
absolutely. So yeah, that’s, that’s, I love that point. Because it’s not it’s not discussed enough. The other the other thing, this is more anecdotal stuff, right. So we’ve had some customers who’ve run some experiments. You know, you’ve got to be very careful about remaining within Amazon’s Terms of Service. But if you know, somebody first buys on Amazon, you’re trying to give them a I guess, a legitimate reason to try and get the disease remaining within Terms of Service. And what, what they noticed is that, sure, there might there’s some way of doing it. And so they go, the second purchase is actually DDC, but the third and the fourth and the fifth purchases are back on Amazon. Right. And so again, it’s just you’re not going to get this person to go DTC, ultimately, right. And so they are very much big differences in in customers. And as I say, it’s not going to cannibalize your DVC. They’ll just some people that will only buy on Amazon, and that happens a lot more often than people think.
Norman Farrar 39:39
Interesting. Kelsey, is there another quote? I know there’s more questions.
Kelsey 39:45
All right. Yep. So just reminder, we have the hashtag we’ll have Kelsey if you are interested. Get them in also we are taking questions. So let us know in the comments if you have anything about neuere customer, any thoughts they can be as complicated or as simple as he wants, that’s, we deal with it all. So the next question is from, let’s do from Jeff. So this is from Jeff, is their suggestion to following platform POS to work positive tivity to head off low reviews before they happen?
Rael Cline 40:19
Is this suggestion to head off low Ruby? I think this one’s really, really tough. Right? So this is one of the this is one of the areas where Amazon’s kind of strict us around the terms of service. So I think like, proper, you know, remaining within trc TTS, I think it’s going to be quite tough. It’s not something that I have particular experience with, it’s not something that, I guess, anecdotally I know, people have have done. I mean, this is gonna be a bit of a cop out of an answer. But it’s really about providing a good quality product, this place, but it’s, you know, I mean, that speaks to a wider point, like, you know, we can go so deep into the data, I can get all as sophisticated as you like. But if you’re not selling a product that people want, or a good quality product, like don’t bother doing anything else.
Norman Farrar 41:07
I don’t think this is a data question. i It’s a customer experience. Question. Yeah, and I can’t agree more with you that, like, if you’re launching a product, Jeff, and you’re, you know, this is maybe pre launch, send out a bunch, get it yourself, by the way, because you don’t know how the final product ended up in your three PL, but get people to test it out, and just see what they think. So like, I’ll just use an example. And this really did happen. So there was a particular shade of green that somebody didn’t like in my soap, and gave me a one star review. Because the shade of green, amazing. You put exactly, you know, but But you know, when when people receive the soap, is it packaged nicely? Do they like the scent? You know, sometimes, and again, this is in my industry, I know this sandalwood, or lavender, there’s very different scents for lavender or sandalwood. And if you don’t have the right scent, and you can hear it right off the bat, for people who loves lavender or sandalwood, you know where to go, if it’s too strong. If it’s not quite the right scent, then you can shop around and change it around before it’s too late. But I think customer experience no, the product makes sure that it’s packaged well, that will help you with the reviews more than and plus, you’ve got to know your data, you have to know your audience.
Rael Cline 42:40
Yeah, I mean, I love your point around the packaging, because using using some of it as an example, I guess we could use the data, which is to say, if you know, on average, people buy three times from you in a year, and you’re not under so much pressure to break even on their first purchase. Perhaps you can spend more investing in, in better packaging and better sort of customer experience, right? Because you’ve got a lot more room to play with now, in terms of your margins. So if I just wait three months, that means I could do these things get better quality product or better quality packaging, or, you know, whatever it may be in order to do that. So I think that’s great. But yeah, I mean, any sort of early testing, you know, 90 with Amazon, just get the, you know, the product in people’s hands and get feedback and right. So the stuff. Yeah, this, I guess no substitute for that. But it’s it’s very difficult within the Amazon ecosystem, I’d say to to do that upfront, right.
Norman Farrar 43:31
Yeah. Yeah, I think it is. Okay, Kells, next.
Kelsey 43:36
Okay, I think this is the last question from cause, folks or jumper? Sorry? How do you value banner ads, for example, pure brand Authority building isn’t necessarily an activity that will present immediate sales data. It’s a long term play. I’d love to hear your comments about this.
Rael Cline 43:56
Yeah. So again, I could I guess, talk for quite a while on this. It’s interesting. In my previous business, we were effectively writing custom algorithms for programmatic advertising, which is effectively Amazon’s DSP or banner ads, right? And so we, I’m pretty familiar with how all of that stuff works under the hood. And you know, the bottom line is you can have a whole bunch of different what’s called attribution models, right. And so most of the advertising ecosystem will work on what’s called last touch attribution. So if someone first sees your banner ad on day, 03 days later clicks on one of your ads on the, you know, on the CPC side, then views another banner ad and then clicks another CPC and goes and buys the product. Everything that happened before that last ad doesn’t count at all right? A full attribution goes to that last ad that they clicked and bought the product. Is it unfair probably. And so there’s a whole sort of world of creating what’s called Custom attribution models. To say, How much does it really matter that, you know, they saw this first ad, on day zero, it was a banner ad they didn’t, they just saw it didn’t interact with it, right? They didn’t click, it didn’t do anything, but they just saw it. And so is that 10% Is that 50%. And so there’s, you know, real complicated way of trying to figure out all this sort of stuff. Of course, it matters. But exactly how much in a way kind of depends on your product. And so, if you’re selling a much more, sort of expensive item, if you’re selling a TV or furniture that’s in the hundreds of dollars, right, the better advertising stuff probably is going to get a lot more credit, ultimately, the awareness and all that sort of stuff, as opposed to something that’s a much shorter purchase cycle. Like, if you know that somebody views an ad, you’re selling a TV, right? It’s, I don’t know, $500, whatever it is, you know, that it probably takes somebody like a month or two, right to actually go and purchase it, because they want to, you know, researchers and, you know, compared to wait for the best price and all that sort of stuff. And so actually, the banner ad should get more credit for it, because it’s part of that two month journey of the buying cycle. Whereas something that’s, you know, much cheaper, that’s, I don’t know, $10 or something, you don’t really need to research it, it’s just kind of perhaps an impulse buy a banner ad probably doesn’t even matter that much. So without getting into like all the weird details of the attribution, that’s kind of how we would look at that. Now, interestingly, Amazon has the Amazon Marketing Cloud, which they’ve been pushing sort of towards the end of last year, it’s been it’s been beautiful for for quite a while. This is, at the moment, just focused on the Amazon ecosystem. But it is actually a way of tracking all the advertising that’s going on across all of Amazon’s products. So you’re able to put in, you know, the banner ads. So Amazon’s DSP data, you can put in things like your PPC data from sponsored display, and you know, all that sort of stuff. And there’s a whole roadmap of that. But ultimately, what this aims to do this Amazon Marketing town, is actually stitched together their journey of seeing exactly what I just said, around, hey, on day one, they viewed this ad on day three, they clicked on this one, and on day five, they bought it and you can start putting custom attribution models to that as well. So Amazon will say, you know, the default is last click, as we said, but hey, you might want to try these other attribution models as well. So as a very detailed, I guess, answer to all of these sort of things. Like with most things in advertising, it’s never very clear cut. And the answer is, it depends. Which is not not really what people want to hear. But yeah, I mean, I guess for me, they absolutely matter. It certain industries are more reliant on banner ads, and others as well, like selling anything in health and beauty is gonna, you know, banner ads, and awareness, and you know, all that sort of stuff is more impactful than then something where another category, for instance, so it depends on the category. And it depends on the price of the product, and ultimately the buying cycle. Is it two months? Or is it like 30 seconds that someone’s considering the purchase before they buy it? Right?
Norman Farrar 47:56
Yep. Great answer. With just a sec here, another frog? Yeah, usually with answers like that is how long is a piece of string? But I think you explained it. Well.
Rael Cline 48:08
It’s more about what what variables to consider it? Yeah. If you’re going to do something custom, what are the things you need to think about? Yeah,
Norman Farrar 48:17
and you know, when I think of, and I’m talking about in the Amazon system, you know, when you surround your ad, with when you surround your product with your own product, like the sponsored ads, the the banner, yeah, the branded ads, the display ads, and the sponsored ads. I mean, if you do it with your own keywords, I mean, it’s a really great brand defense, you’re spending money, but you’re trying to, you know, win that customer over without, you know, your client or your other competition showing up on your page. So, I mean, you do spend to make in some cases, but if it’s a bar of soap, I know they’re going to come back for more. So it’s well worth it.
Rael Cline 48:59
Yeah, exactly. You’re working it out over the lifetime of the customer as opposed to just you know, the first purchase basically. Exactly. And that’s what we’re all about as well.
Norman Farrar 49:08
Okay, so Oh, yep, go ahead kills.
Kelsey 49:11
We do have one more question from Bronwyn. So Bronwyn is asking what is the best way to know your customer target market? If you are in a launch phase and don’t have any customer data? Yeah,
Rael Cline 49:23
great question. Love that. I’m very difficult to do that. I mean, for me, it’s difficult to do that on Amazon. A lot of the, for me the testing would be trying to do it like off Amazon, right trying to run kind of run tests to see what sort of people are interested in your product. So a lot of the time. You could run a PPC test on Facebook, on who you think your product is driving to particular landing page and seeing who’s signing up to do that, for your product or a waiting list or whatever it is right like it so for me most of that work will have to be before you even launch. Now you never We’re gonna have super strong conviction around who your customers are, right? Like, that’s just kind of unrealistic. And in many ways, muzzle is a company faced the same thing like, you know, ultimately we’re providing all this data, but it’s not it’s not applicable to every type of seller on the in the Amazon universe, right? Like you need to have a deep need to have a product that lends itself to repeat orders ultimately, right? Otherwise, what’s the point in talking about our attention? Right? If they have no need to buy? If you’re selling a TV for $1,000? You know, I mean, you’re going to wait like, a long time before they’re gonna buy again, kind of thing, right? So. So we had a, we went through a similar process of saying, Well, we think it’s the sort of person or we think it could be any one of these four different types of personas, at the end of the day, you want to come up with a persona of your customer. So this is something like, it could be demographic information, but it could be things like, you know, what are their pain points? Or, you know, are you? Why are they why are they buying the product? Or what’s your product differentiation? And this is, you know, this is a process of ultimately speaking to people, there’s no substitute for speaking to people, I would say, probably not friends and family, because they’re going to be biased or perhaps afraid to tell you, you know, it’s the wrong thing. It’s such, I wouldn’t Yeah, that’s kind of what I wanted to say. So there’s, you know, there are ways of trying to just put it in front of neutral people, ultimately, that are gonna give you an honest answer. And it’s a way of testing it, right. And it’s also the language you use at the end of the day. So for us, you know, we started with, we would have 10, different landing pages, all with, like, different propositions, different language that we’re using to describe the product. I mean, I’ll give you one example. You know, I’ve been on this call, I’ve been talking about profit per customer. You know, we we also sometimes call it customer lifetime value. And customer lifetime value is kind of known within, I don’t know, perhaps like a Shopify world. But, you know, Amazon sellers, or personas aren’t going to use that term. So yeah, finding out the language to use and the personas and building up a picture of a particular customer. That’s, for me something that’s going to be done before you even launch, ultimately, and you’ve got to be pretty nimble about this sort of stuff. And, you know, once you launch, you got to monitor it, is it still the case? The do all those things still hold? Right? Is it actually a different type of person. And this can come by experimentation by a PPC, for instance, where you can start targeting different sorts of terms that target different types of personas to see where your traction is. But it’s really a method of, in a way AV testing or split testing, to be able to do that. But as I say, it’s, that’s perhaps a more expensive way of doing it, you want to do most of the legwork before you even launch.
Norman Farrar 52:33
And a couple of other things I like to add is you could you could do your competitive analysis. So you could even simply just go to Helium 10 Run CEE, bro, find the closest products that you can find, like if you’re, if you’re looking for lavender, so don’t look at people who sell Sandalwood soap, right? So you want to get the as a similar product, go and check out see what the pain points are, like you were saying? Yeah, in the listing, see the language that you’re using? You could even go into Facebook groups and see what type of language I got. Yeah. You know, they’re using. I mean, we’ve read the
Rael Cline 53:15
reviews, right? Read it. Yeah, exactly what people like and perhaps even more importantly, what people don’t like about the products, right? And then you’re like, okay, cool. That’s probably what I need to focus on, right? Or at least worth a test.
Norman Farrar 53:25
And then the other thing you can do is, once you see who your major competitors are here, check them out, go to their social media. And again, it’s competitive analysis, but then go to spark Toro, yes. About to say that, right. Yeah, and then just extract everything. And there’s one other thing you can do with the information that you get from your competitive analysis. Use either PickFu or usability hub. And you were just saying you got to talk to people? Well, there are, there’s the people that you need to talk to a very inexpensive focus group that you can ask and who you can say like, you can think that this is your demographic, they’ll come back and say no, you know, we wouldn’t buy it. Okay. Who would? So, yeah, anyways, you can definitely use that.
Rael Cline 54:13
Yeah, I would certainly be making use of something like PickFu. They’re in a different this is somewhat of a different mentality, I guess, in a way with people on PickFu incentives right around what why they’re there in the first place, versus someone who’s perhaps, you know, got a lot more intent because they’re searching for something or whatever it is, there’s kind of a different place in the buying, like someone’s actually thinking about buying something or interested in versus what’s your view on this, but I would certainly do it and combine it with other ways of doing it as well. Right. So I pulled up a different picture.
Norman Farrar 54:43
Okay, so I think that’s it kills. Are there any more questions?
Kelsey 54:49
No, I think we covered them all. So I think we’re good to go for a rally.
Norman Farrar 54:53
back, relax. I see this for the first time.
Kelsey 54:57
Alright, here we go at the wheel of Kelsey Okay, here we go that we left. Kelsey, thank you. For everyone who entered. You have 48 hours to reach out to me if you are today’s winner, so I’m going to shuffle these up. And let’s see. Alright, so if you are the winner, please email me Kay at lunch with Noren calm and we’ll set everything up for you. And it looks like the winner is
Rael Cline 55:37
looking good for Tony.
Norman Farrar 55:38
Oh, Tony. Yes. Nice one.
Kelsey 55:44
Alright, so we’ll set you up. So nice
Norman Farrar 55:46
way to start the new year, Tony. Yeah, had it all. Okay, so I think that’s about it. The only thing I like to just add, you have the app. People just go to nozzle to go and purchase it.
Rael Cline 56:05
Yeah, absolutely. We’ve got we put a I guess a link that that they can go to where they will qualify for the, you know, is a 14 day free trial, but also 50% discount on the first month as well. If you just want to chat about stuff, I love them clearly. You know, I wouldn’t be doing this if I don’t love the topic and all that. So if you’re just curious, even want to reach out to me, always happy to have a chat as well.
Norman Farrar 56:26
Okay, very good. Okay, so how do people get ahold of you? You want to get contacted by email or social media?
Rael Cline 56:35
email or social media. So email is Rael dot Klein, Ra E L dot c l, I n e@nozzle.ai. Or LinkedIn. Those are probably the two. Most I’m not that active on Twitter. Alternatively, you know, gotta go to the website and sort of reach out there, but always happy to have a chat. I love this topic.
Norman Farrar 56:56
Fantastic. All right, rail. Thank you for being on the show. You were awesome. Awesome. Thank
Rael Cline 57:00
you so much for having me.
Norman Farrar 57:01
Okay. Until next time, we’ll see you later. Alright, everybody, I hope you enjoyed the topic today, I thought it was very useful. Especially these are things we don’t normally talk about understanding your Amazon client. But we also talked about, you know, in general, understanding your audience, so it’s so important. On Friday, we’re going to be joined by Aiden shimmer. And we’re going to be talking about he’s a first time guest, by the way, but we’re going to be talking about the challenges business owners are having right now, with health and wellness. So it’s going to be an interesting show. We started out last year the same way we want to make sure everybody is you know, got a healthy approach to business and, you know, to take action if you don’t have a healthy approach to business or if your wellness. Wellness is so important right now, I don’t think I have to tell you, everybody’s probably known somebody who you know is suffering or who has suffered with this whole COVID situation. So tune in, it’ll be an interesting episode. But before we get over to Kelsey, let’s have another quick word from our sponsor. I wanted to give a quick shout out and say thank you to global wired advisors for sponsoring this episode of lunch with Norm. Global wired advisors is a leading digital investment bank focused on optimizing the business sales process. For more information, please call Chris shuffling and his team over at global wired advisors.com Okay, dude.
Kelsey 58:43
All right. Another great episode. Thanks. First
Norman Farrar 58:47
time I think I’ve ever called you, dude.
Kelsey 58:49
I know. It’s It’s unsettling, but
Norman Farrar 58:54
I don’t usually call people dude.
Kelsey 58:57
Yeah, you can start it’s a new year. Yeah. Why not? Dude, Squire squire does better than fire. Think. But thank you, everyone who tuned in today. It’s been a pleasure hanging out with you. I see some new users as well. So yeah, if you’re new to the show, it’s we go live every Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 12pm. Eastern time. And we stream on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube. So just tune in. Follow us on social media. And you’ll get
Norman Farrar 59:26
all the alerts that you need. Kelsey was on time again today, which was awesome. So
Kelsey 59:29
tuna rove. Also attention for our Platinum Patreon users. We do have our guest lesson today with reetou. Java. So that’s available for Rs eight, I’m gonna be awesome. Yep. So it’s a very small group. Super excited about that. And that will be in about an hour. So see you guys then. And I think that’s about it. Smash those like buttons if you haven’t already. Check out rails nozzle.ai For more information from today’s episode. You can check the links in the description as well. And I think that’s it.
Norman Farrar 1:00:07
Fantastic. Okay, so don’t forget to tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Friday at noon Eastern Standard Time. And thank you everybody for being here today. Thanks for being part of our community. Like Kelsey said at the beginning, we couldn’t have done this without you. We can’t do it without you. So thank you and enjoy the rest of your day. Mantra
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
